- From: Charles F Wiecha <wiecha@us.ibm.com>
- Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 05:46:29 -0400
- To: "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <oedipus@hicom.net>
- Cc: public-xg-app-backplane@w3.org
Gregory -- thanks! I hadn't noticed the 11th vs 12th! Charlie
Charles Wiecha
Manager, Multichannel Web Interaction
IBM T.J. Watson Research Center
P.O. Box 704
Yorktown Heights, N.Y. 10598
Phone: (914) 784-6180, T/L 863-6180, Cell: (914) 320-2614
wiecha@us.ibm.com
Re: minutes: Backplane XG call, 12 August 2008 [draft]
Gregory J. Rosmaita
to:
Charles F Wiecha
08/12/08 09:24 PM
Sent by:
public-xg-app-backplane-request@w3.org
Cc:
public-xg-app-backplane
aloha, charlie!
the problem, as usual, is with the human side of the HCI -- i
hand typed the URIs into the post without double-checking them
for accuracy, and since i am calendrically impaired (until we
aria-enable the calendar picker widget, at least) i mistook the
12th of august for the 11th of august -- hence, the correct URIs
are:
http://www.w3.org/2008/08/12-backplane-minutes.html
and
http://www.w3.org/2008/08/12-backplane-irc
and, for good measure, the full minutes are included in the body of
this post for convenience's sake... i think i need to significantly
increase my daily allotment of caffeine, and perhaps even defragment
my brain...
just more proof -- as if any were needed that one can never fully
account for the H in HCI...
apologies for the confusion,
gregory.
----------------------------------------------------------------
CONSERVATIVE, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils,
as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them
with others. -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gregory J. Rosmaita, oedipus@hicom.net
Camera Obscura: http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/index.html
----------------------------------------------------------------
- DRAFT -
Backplane XG Teleconference
12 Aug 2008
Agenda:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Aug/0006.html
See also: IRC log - http://www.w3.org/2008/08/12-backplane-irc
Attendees
Present
Charlie, Gregory_Rosmaita, Jack_Jansen, John_Boyer,
Peter_Thomas, Rahul, Steven
Regrets
Kevin_Kelly, Uli [inserted into email record only]
Chair
Charles_Wiecha
Scribe
Gregory_Rosmaita
Contents
* Topics
1. Introductions & Agenda Additions/General Comments
2. Rahul's Calendar Picker Example
3. Approach to AJAX
4. XForms Model and UI controls in SMIL
* Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________________
<Charlie> thx
<Charlie> thx
<scribe> Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
<scribe> ScribeNick: oedipus
<Charlie> you the man!
<Charlie> you bet
"the ability to cause assistive technology (AT) to speak. By using
WAI-ARIA, AxsJAX is able to manipulate the DOM such that an ARIA-aware
browser plus assistive technology (AT) combination will generate and
receive the necessary events which cause the AT to speak what the web
developer wishes to be spoken. "
<Charlie> yes, was just reading the AxsJAX stuff
<Charlie> on google code
good
<Charlie> this is raman's work?
of course!
<Charlie> sure
the key is that we are planning on using ARIA enabled tools: dojo
supports ajax, and YUI also is integrating aria support
<Charlie> would like to understand better what that means
<Charlie> devil is in the details...
if it is built-in from the start, then the level of accessibilty is
much higher than if an overlay or middleware has to intervene
<Charlie> we might have a really nice story in the use of xforms in
dojo with the ubiquity approach
<Charlie> i.e. providing the accessibility DOM from the outset as an
authored artifact
<Charlie> rather than built after the fact and exposed
<Charlie> not sure if any of this makes sense
basically, scripted objects don't have keyboard support or
navigational flow - ARIA allows an AT to interact with an embedded
widget
agree re: ubiquity approach with dojo
<Charlie> maybe we can look at the custom control that rahul has built
in yui over the last few weeks...for calendars and color picking
yes!
<Charlie> then talk about how it could be made accessible using aira
in dojo/xforms
i also know the head of yahoo accessibility, victor tsaran
<Charlie> cool
basically, ARIA keeps embedded objects and widgets from being
perceptual black holes, and allows user interaction with the
object/widget by bi-lateral communication between the DOM, ARIA and an
AT (assistive technology)
it's something that was needed 5 years ago - we didn't know how long
the development process would take
ARIA in Gmail Blog:
http://www.marcozehe.de/2008/08/04/aria-in-gmail-1-alerts/
we had google reps at the last ARIA sub-committee meeting to discuss
ARIA issues that they have uncovered in deployment
minutes are at: http://www.w3.org/2008/08/11-pf-minutes.html
<Charlie> thx...will check that out, sounds like it's the kind of
feedback that is very helpful
<Charlie> which WG is doing ARIA?
protocols & formats: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-primer/
<Charlie> thx
latest editor's drafts -- made public to assist in troubleshooting
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria - the ARIA spec itself
WAI-ARIA Roadmap (editor's draft) -
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-roadmap
WAI-ARIA Best Practices: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices
just added some resources to my proto-page - weba11y.org which is
maintained by becky gibson of IBM and a dojo development team leader
and point-person for accessibility (a11y)
<Charlie> here's the link to the calendar html source that rahul will
show:
<Charlie>
http://ubiquity-xforms.googlecode.com/svn/branches/calendar/_samples/y
ui-custom-controls/input-calendar.html
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/app-backplane/wiki/User_talk:GJR#Deve
lopers.27_Resources
thanks -- i'll check it out now
<Charlie> it should come up and run directly off that URL
loading as we type..
<Charlie> k
problem 1: there is no explicit "Submit" mechanism - this is a WCAG
1.0/2.0 violation
http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag10
http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag20
<Charlie> doubt this page actually does anything other than show the
calendars...
ah
<Charlie> it's to illustrate the code as being checked into the
ubiquity project
<Charlie> hi steven!
still, would be good to make sure the example is WCAG compliant
aloha, steven!
<Steven> hi
<Steven> scribing on another call right now
<Charlie> let's map out a demo for this XG to do that
<Charlie> that we can then show at the tech plenary
wunderbar!
<Charlie> LOL
recorded demos of ARIA in ACTION:
http://www.weba11y.com/demos/index.html
<Steven> ½½ for Gregory's copy buffer
thanks - er, danke
Introductions & Agenda Additions/General Comments
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Aug/00
06.html
<Charlie>
http://ubiquity-xforms.googlecode.com/svn/branches/calendar/_samples/y
ui-custom-controls/input-calendar.html
<Charlie>
http://ubiquity-xforms.googlecode.com/svn/branches/calendar/_samples/y
ui-custom-controls/input-calendar.html
<Charlie> Agenda:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Aug/00
06.html
CW: GJR and i have been chatting about ARIA and accessibility
... want to move towards planning set of demos for tech plenary
<Steven> rssagent, make log public
CW: need to get back to Debi Dahl and identify other WGs we want to
meet with
... start with rahul's demo
... segue from custom control to ARIA stuff - custom control
accessibility
... abstract UI control tree might support ARIA enabling
... JJ read paper last night - didn't know about Mark Birbeck's SMIL
work
... scripting limitations of SMIL
... agenda addenda?
Rahul's Calendar Picker Example
http://ubiquity-xforms.googlecode.com/svn/branches/calendar/_samples/y
ui-custom-controls/input-calendar.html
CW: platforms? using mac
GJR: using FF3.01 with JAWS9 on WinXP Pro9
GJR will try later with orca (GNOME screen reader) and FF3.01
CW: shall i use web dialogs?
JJ: doesn't work in safari -- doesn't crash it, but nothing happens
<Charlie>
http://ubiquity-xforms.googlecode.com/svn/branches/calendar/_samples/y
ui-custom-controls/input-calendar.html
CW: don't think will work with Safari and Opera
Rahul: calendar control exposed as xforms input or xforms range -
airline reservation scenario
... started with YUI library - object, leverage YUI widgets and add
ubiquity-xform
... 3 custom controls - reason for 3 variants is to explore xforms
markup - one uses CSS class, one uses datatype and one uses XForms
appearance attribute
... could come from different AJAX libraries; using xforms model to
tie together across AJAX libraries (backplane end of it)
... can do variants by tweaking appearance -- popup calendar, standing
calendar
... just started with this excercise
Charlie: current value in data model that you are bound to, can edit
from either direction
Rahul: since using data bindings provided by xforms model - if look at
source, very little application code to perform synchronization; using
AJAX library YUI provides bindings; still need application mode
CW: using ubiquity model all UI provided by YUI framework
... xforms controls in play, AJAX doing custom widget rendering; child
of xforms control
... if look at DOM, separate label for xforms, child container element
for what is needed by AJAX library which perfoms rendering
... tying to accessibility, dives down below visible markup; factors
DOM in running browser; interaction and data binding used for
presentational purposes, will be easy to integrate ARIA interfaces
Approach to AJAX
CW: abstract UI control good starting point for adding ARIA to support
assistive technology
... illustrates use case - ubiquity approach via AJAX in sub-trees,
could be leveraged for accessibility
... any questions/comments on controls?
GJR: lack of explicit submit mechanism for form (WCAG violation)
JB: hangs my machine
Rahul: can try locally -- incredibly faster
JJ: if inspect dom via FF, first control has input stuff, but where is
calendar input
... if walk through DOM tree see input control, but no trace of the
calenar inputs
Rahul: in FireBug go to HTML tag
... open BODY and will find TABLE in there; expand that
JJ: table incomplete -- only first column before variable tag
... ah, hidden in different place then i thought they'd be
... table with 1 row that happens to stack
CW: ARIA makes distinction between A11y DOM and UA DOM; additional
level of tree stucture; why isn't this abstract UI tree in XForms?
giving authoring story to provide community
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/#tree
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/#treegrid
i think i need to call back in
<Steven> we hear you
<Charlie> k
<Steven> JohnBoyer: I still use IE 3.2
<Steven> :-p
<John_Boyer> I want to make sure we still have Opera compatibility!
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/#grid
CW: think about xf namespace elements are where properties are
... intuition - hiding calendar is clean -- does accessibilty make
cleaner
... should we take further to ascertain how accessibility cna be
obtained
JJ: like what i hear - doesn't mess up DOM, IDs all there -- much
better
CW: shadowing - XBL something like this
... demo ideal for the point that can work today - AJAX implementation
plus ARIA could provide support for xforms on today's browsers - good
to take to WAI and Forms at Tech Plenary
... make sense to follow up with GJR - working on simple load form to
illustrate simple app - not only nice looking form that runs in YUI
and/or AJAX
??: calendaring important - may need more work
CW: part of GUI aspect of form
GJR: if have access to code, can ARIA enable
best ARIA test suite so far: http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/
CW: get discussion going on list - can point to form fragments, and
add ARIA support to them
John_Boyer: loan form - how do you tell someone who cannot see
something that is not relevant and now visible?
... if type principal for loan, not enough info - need to set duration
of loan - still need to calculate interest rate; when entered enough
info, can show you something you couldn't do before
CW: map between XForms and ARIA
GJR: will provide list of ARIA derived from XForms
CW: mapping between ubiquity events and control - core javascript
behavior in ubiquity that is ARIA enabled
XForms Model and UI controls in SMIL
CW: interesting notion of data model extension serving as UI for SMIL
agent to drive dynamic properties and synchronize
JJ's background paper:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Aug/00
05.html
CW: wanted to highlight need for custom loop code to drive the google
map API
... MarkB has example using XBL - can reuse that - uses data model and
UI into googlemap logic; set of xforms elements that handles all
google map info; on SMIL side, have xforms control as well; can use
ubiquity to add databinding into bicycle tour
JJ: back up one step - idea started as way of getting state in model;
evolving into SMIL execution model - declarative, unlike javascript;
trying to see how a declarative execution model enable a certain
classs of applicatinos without using javascript
... always will be apps that need javascript, but large number of
places where could use SMIL plus data model; applications can then be
transformed, accessified - can do what you can't do in the javascript
black hole
CW: showed in paper SMIL and XForms components
JJ: map feature - googlemaps part of problem - modifying text in HTML
- if xforms output can be used, once data model changes, can change
visible text on page but cannot change the URI of a link
... hoping to use XBL - but no XBL for Safari
... screen shots on page 2 - can't change link via xforms - so little
bit of javascript that smashes value from data model into HREF of
anchor
... for my types of apps, if have attribute value templates - in any
attribute value, can put xforms expression in curly braces and gets
evaluated at runtime
CW: could have same result as rahul
JJ: then have to tell stylesheets that though this is not an anchor
tag, should use formatting defined for anchor
CW: Ubiquity SMIL project Mark Birbeck is running?
JJ: no
CW: just found out about it recently
GJR: notes that safari being ARIA enabled
JJ: have to look at how much of SMIL is implemented for type of demos
want to sho
... would solve plugin problem when viewing demo
GJR: http://juicystudio.com/article/safari-support-aria.php
CW: will post SMIL ubiquity info on list
<Charlie> http://code.google.com/p/ubiquity-smil/
JJ: research work is "done" from one point of view; from another
deployable, anything deployable should advance the work
CW: compelling point in paper is data driven API - show how Mark done
from maps side and JJ from SMIL side - add to list of tech plenary
demos?
JJ: wouldn't mind doing demo, but participation in person a big if
... if ubiquity-smil code can help me with more depth - video
synchronization; smil plugin for safari
CW: limitations
JB: ubiquity is targetting safari as well
... won't be long, but might not be soon enough
JJ: understand: FF would be nicer platform, but in Safari, get binding
integration free - not available in FF - anyone know of javascript
bridge for FF?
<jackjansen> Javascript <-> Python, that is...
CW: next week: set of demos that can take to tech plenary - calendar
picker and JJ's demo
... take pulse of projects and decide about moving forward
<scribe> ACTION: Gregory - post list of aria roles, properties and
states derived from or related to XForms concepts [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2008/08/12-backplane-minutes.html#action01]
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Gregory - post list of aria roles, properties and states
derived from or related to XForms concepts [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2008/08/12-backplane-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________________
Received on Wednesday, 13 August 2008 09:47:37 UTC