- From: <michael.mccormick@wellsfargo.com>
- Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 15:16:38 -0600
- To: <ifette@google.com>, <Mary_Ellen_Zurko@notesdev.ibm.com>
- Cc: <public-wsc-wg@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <9D471E876696BE4DA103E939AE64164DA3BD20@msgswbmnmsp17.wellsfargo.com>
I like the 1st paragraph as is. I share Ian's concerns about the 2nd paragraph, but rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater I think it can be salvaged. For instance: Web user agents MAY inform the user when web content attempts to execute software outside of the agent environment, and MAY also request user consent, but SHOULD NOT do so unconditionally for all types of content or software. If the agent chooses to do this then it SHOULD do it for specific content types, software types, or security context based on risk. _____ From: public-wsc-wg-request@w3.org [mailto:public-wsc-wg-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Ian Fette Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:36 AM To: Mary Ellen Zurko Cc: public-wsc-wg@w3.org Subject: Re: ISSUE-131 (Code outside browser): Executing code outside of browser in 8.3.2.3 is vague / scary [All] Hi Mez, Thanks for your work to provide alternate text. I like your first paragraph, the only thing I might change is to say that "web user agents MAY (instead of SHOULD) inform the user when web content is installing... that is covered by a pre-consent". I.e. I may be fine allowing automatic installation of code signed by Microsoft, as happens half of the time I visit windows update in my virtual machine. I don't know that I really want to see notifications if I've already said this is OK. I don't think this is a major concern for me, it's just something I'd like us to consider. The second paragraph though brings up the same concerns I had with the original text. We're saying that when you browse to a PDF (or a page with a PDF embedded, i.e. a frameset where one of the frames is a PDF, or any other wacky embed tags that IE might support), I really don't want to see "Acrobat Reader is launching in the background. Yes/No". That, and the fact that the browser might have no idea. It just loads the acroread plugin, and then the plugin can start issuing whatever calls it wants, which may result in new processes ( i.e. AcroRd32.exe) being launched outside the browser context. Thus, I worry that the 2nd paragraph is going to be either annoying at best, impossible to implement at worst. I would therefore say "keep paragraph 1, drop paragraph 2" of your new text... -Ian On Dec 20, 2007 9:20 AM, Mary Ellen Zurko <Mary_Ellen_Zurko@notesdev.ibm.com> wrote: Well I could have sworn I typed in alternate text during our meeting, but I can't find it in the minutes or the IRC log. I'll see if I can recreate an alternate version that addresses the concerns. Some of this may be too weak, or too strong, for some tastes, but it gets at the original spirit will addressing the issues raised. btw, I don't think just because something is not a current problem it should not be part of a standard. Standards are often based on current best practice. That is in fact a strong foundation to build a standard on. Web user agents MUST inform the user and request consent when web content attempts to install software outside of the browser environment, using browser mechanisms and technology that are explicitly provided for such installations. Web user agents SHOULD NOT provide features which can be used by web content to install software outside of the browser environment without the user's consent. Web user agents MAY provide mechanisms for users to pre-consent to a class of software installations. Web user agents SHOULD inform the user when web content is installing software outside of the browser environment that is covered by a pre-consent. Web user agents SHOULD inform the user when web content attempts to execute software outside of the browser environment. It MAY also request user consent. Mez Mary Ellen Zurko, STSM, IBM Lotus CTO Office (t/l 333-6389) Lotus/WPLC Security Strategy and Patent Innovation Architect From: "Ian Fette" <ifette@google.com> To: michael.mccormick@wellsfargo.com Cc: public-wsc-wg@w3.org Date: 12/19/2007 08:08 PM Subject: Re: ISSUE-131 (Code outside browser): Executing code outside of browser in 8.3.2.3 is vague / scary [All] _____ As per our 12/12 meeting, I am proposing removing the third bullet under 8.3.2 - "Web user agents MUST inform the user and request consent when web content attempts to install or execute software outside of the browser environment". There are many things that make this hard / impossible to get right, and even harder to actually get the intended effect without being totally annoying. For instance, when you load a PDF, Acrobat Reader is launched outside of the browser context. Yet I don't really want a dialog box every time I browse to a PDF, I just want to see the PDF. Same thing when I click on a mailto: link - it's going to get shell executed, and software (my MUA) is going to run outside the browser. Or if there's an embedded video that causes the windows mediaplayer plugin to do some funky COM stuff outside of the browser - again, I really don't want dialog boxes here. I understand the intent and think it's probably a good one, but it's really hard to actually get it right in words, and I think it's something that browsers are doing pretty well anyways. I'm not going to rehash everything in this email, please see the 12/12 notes for a full review of the conversation ( http://www.w3.org/2007/12/12-wsc-minutes.html <http://www.w3.org/2007/12/12-wsc-minutes.html> ). In that meeting, I said I would email back on this issue and propose that the best way to resolve it is to simply remove the bullet point, unless anyone feels strongly about it. If you do feel strongly about it, then please come up with some alternate text. Thanks, Ian On Nov 6, 2007 8:36 AM, <michael.mccormick@wellsfargo.com <mailto:michael.mccormick@wellsfargo.com> > wrote: The "install" part is very important, but the "execute" part is a rabbit hole we probably don't want to go down. For example, when I point IE at a resource of MIME type ms/xls, Excel launches outside the browser as a helper app. It would be annoying if I got constant warning messages every time I pull up a XLS, PDF, etc. Constant warnings = ignored warnings. I do want to be warned when a page tries to install a plugin like Acroread, but not every time that plugin runs. Same for helpers, toolbars, extensions, ActiveX controls, etc. -----Original Message----- From: public-wsc-wg-request@w3.org <mailto:public-wsc-wg-request@w3.org> [mailto:public-wsc-wg-request@w3.org <mailto:public-wsc-wg-request@w3.org> ] On Behalf Of Web Security Context Working Group Issue Tracker Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 9:50 AM To: public-wsc-wg@w3.org <mailto:public-wsc-wg@w3.org> Subject: ISSUE-131 (Code outside browser): Executing code outside of browser in 8.3.2.3 <http://8.3.2.3/> is vague / scary [All] ISSUE-131 (Code outside browser): Executing code outside of browser in 8.3.2.3 <http://8.3.2.3/> is vague / scary [All] http://www.w3.org/2006/WSC/track/issues/ <http://www.w3.org/2006/WSC/track/issues/> Raised by: Ian Fette On product: All 8.3.2.3 <http://8.3.2.3/> says "Web user agents MUST inform the user and request consent when web content attempts to install or execute software outside of the browser environment." This is a bit vague and probably not what we intend. For instance, when you navigate to a PDF on a browser using Acrobat Reader w/NPAPI plugin, what happens is that there is a plugin running in the browser, and then Acrobat Reader launches in the browser, and there's a ton of IPC between the plugin and Reader running in the background (which is doing the heavy lifting). This is executing software outside of the browser environment, yet I don't think this is really what we were intending to warn users about. At least, I will scream if I get a popup every time I navigate to a PDF. Seriously.
Received on Thursday, 20 December 2007 21:17:41 UTC