- From: Steve Ross-Talbot <steve@enigmatec.net>
- Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 18:07:14 +0100
- To: "Jean-Jacques Dubray" <jjd@eigner.com>
- Cc: "'Yaron Y. Goland'" <ygoland@bea.com>, "'Assaf Arkin'" <arkin@intalio.com>, "'Burdett, David'" <david.burdett@commerceone.com>, <Daniel_Austin@grainger.com>, <public-ws-chor@w3.org>
+1 from me too. Steve T On Wednesday, May 28, 2003, at 07:27 am, Jean-Jacques Dubray wrote: > > +1 > > Jean-Jacques > > > >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Yaron Y. Goland [mailto:ygoland@bea.com] >>> Sent: Dienstag, 27. Mai 2003 21:12 >>> To: Jean-Jacques Dubray; 'Assaf Arkin' >>> Cc: 'Burdett, David'; Daniel_Austin@grainger.com; > public-ws-chor@w3.org >>> Subject: RE: Straw-man Proposal for our mission statement >>> >>> Based on this thread I would like to put forward a proposal to the > group >>> for >>> a set of requirements that I hope can bring this thread to a > successful >>> conclusion: >>> >>> "The WS-Chor specification MUST NOT adopt a design that prevents it > from >>> taking full advantage of all features in WSDL 1.2. The WS-Chor >>> specification >>> MAY adopt a design that enables the use of alternative message > description >>> than WSDL 1.2 where and when the working group decides this is > appropriate >>> and does not conflict with any other requirements." >>> >>> I would then propose that we table this issue until we finish with >>> the >>> requirements and start doing design so we can look at exactly what an >>> abstract design would require and then decide if we want to try it. >>> >>> Yaron >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Jean-Jacques Dubray [mailto:jjd@eigner.com] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 1:16 PM >>>> To: 'Yaron Y. Goland'; 'Assaf Arkin'; 'Jean-Jacques Dubray' >>>> Cc: 'Burdett, David'; Daniel_Austin@grainger.com; > public-ws-chor@w3.org >>>> Subject: RE: Straw-man Proposal for our mission statement >>>> >>>> >>>> The cost of abstraction is way overestimated here. The abstraction > is >>>> already built, it is called a message and a message exchange > pattern. >>>> Now we have the choice to directly use the WSDL message definition > or >>>> rather define something like: >>>> >>>> <message name="ProcessPO"> >>>> <message name="AckPO> >>>> <mep name="ProcessPO"> >>>> >>>> <binding message="ProcessPO" type="WSDL" version="1.2"> >>>> <portType=""> >>>> </binding> >>>> <binding MEP="ProcessPO" type="ebXML" version="2.0> >>>> <BPSS >>>> URI=http://oasis.org/bunchOfStandardsCollabs/aPOCollaboration"> >>>> <businessTransactionActivity name="ProcessPO> >>>> </binding> >>>> <binding message="AckPO" type="PlainOldFax" > >>>> <fax number="555-1234"/> >>>> </binding> >>>> >>>> so please, let's reasonable on our assertions. >>>> >>>> I am currently on travel in beautiful Berlin, with limited email and > web >>>> access. So I will respond more thoroughly to the emails this > week-end. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> JJ- >>>> >>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Yaron Y. Goland [mailto:ygoland@bea.com] >>>>>> Sent: Montag, 19. Mai 2003 18:50 >>>>>> To: Assaf Arkin; Jean-Jacques Dubray >>>>>> Cc: 'Burdett, David'; Daniel_Austin@grainger.com; >>>> public-ws-chor@w3.org >>>>>> Subject: RE: Straw-man Proposal for our mission statement >>>>>> >>>>>> +1 on tying to WSDL and +1 on Asaf's point that there is a cost to >>>>>> abstraction. The only way to 'abstract' away dependency on > something >>>> is to >>>>>> completely re-invent the thing being depended on and then define > how >>>> your >>>>>> re-invention maps to the original. This is an extremely expensive >>>> process >>>>>> that causes significant harm to interoperability and should only > be >>>>>> undertaken when there is no other choice. The 'abstractions' >>>> introduced >>>>>> between WSDL and SOAP have caused so much interoperability pain > that >>>> two >>>>>> different organizations had to be formed to sort out the resulting >>>> mess. >>>>>> What we need is a little less abstraction and a lot more >>>> interoperability. >>>>>> >>>>>> Yaron >>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: public-ws-chor-request@w3.org >>>>>>> [mailto:public-ws-chor-request@w3.org]On Behalf Of Assaf Arkin >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 9:30 PM >>>>>>> To: Jean-Jacques Dubray >>>>>>> Cc: 'Burdett, David'; Daniel_Austin@grainger.com; >>>> public-ws-chor@w3.org >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Straw-man Proposal for our mission statement >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jean-Jacques Dubray wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't understand your argument, why won't you get everything > for >>>> free >>>>>>>> as long as you have a binding to WSDL whether it is direct or > let's >>>> say >>>>>>>> indirect for the lack of a better word. The advantage of the > later >>>> is >>>>>>>> that in addition of getting everything the ws-arch has to > offer, >>>> you >>>>>> can >>>>>>>> also re-use the formalism of ws-chor for other technologies. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> I just don't see those other technologies as being interesting >>>> that's >>>>>>> all. My personal opinion. In a W3C working group I would prefer > to >>>> pick >>>>>>> all the relevant technologies that the W3C maps out as > interesting >>>> as >>>>>>> part of the WSA. So far I've only heard of WSDL. If it boils > down to >>>> one >>>>>>> technology and that makes my life easier, all the better. What > other >>>>>>> technologies do you suggest we look into? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Having a "binding" framework that relates ws-chor to WSDL > garanties >>>>>> that >>>>>>>> the design of ws-chor is now decoupled from the evolution of > WSDL, >>>> we >>>>>>>> would only change the binding not the core choreography > language. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We can clearly see the limitations of a tight coupling between > BPML >>>> or >>>>>>>> BPEL and web services, now that WSDL is shifting from > operations to >>>>>>>> MEPs, one has to adjust the corresponding specs. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here is how I understand it. Correct me if I'm wrong. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Option 1: based on WSDL >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Can't use other technologies. Need to be updated when WSDL gets >>>> updated. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Option 2: abstacted with binding to WSDL >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Can use other technologies. Needs to be updated when WSDL gets >>>> updated. >>>>>>> Extra level of indirection. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think it's obvious why I would prefer no#1, but just for the > sake >>>> of >>>>>>> being verbose. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Either way if I use some normative specification and that >>>> specification >>>>>>> evolves I would want to use the new version, be it WSDL, XSDL, >>>> XPath, >>>>>>> whatever. So either way we need to update the specification. It > may >>>>>>> affect language section 4 or it may affect binding appendix A, > but >>>>>>> that's all the same. I don't see a real big differentiaor > between 1 >>>> and >>>>>>> 2 to suggest one is better than the other. And as you guess I've >>>> already >>>>>>> planned for it so I know what it entails and it doesn't seem > like a >>>> big >>>>>>> issue to me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Option 2 is simply more complicated to support and require > invention >>>> of >>>>>>> an abstract layer and invention of a binding layer which makes > the >>>>>>> specification, implementations, interoperability, RI, etc more >>>>>>> complicated. That's good if it actually buys you anything. What > does >>>> it >>>>>>> buy you? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I've heard before the argument that if we only wrote the spec to > not >>>> so >>>>>>> directly rely on WSDL we could also use IDL. Well, by the time > we go >>>> to >>>>>>> finish the spec the problem was already taken care of and you > have >>>>>>> IDL-WSDL mapping that's well defined and readily available. It > was >>>> in my >>>>>>> opinion - then and now - a waste of time to consider anything > other >>>> than >>>>>>> WSDL. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We've talked about simplifying the language which as I read it > means >>>> do >>>>>>> less features now, do the rest later on. I'm going to buy a hat. > If >>>>>>> we're going to have to change the specification because using > WSDL >>>> is no >>>>>>> longer the only interesting option before we get around to > writing a >>>> new >>>>>>> version of the specification anyway, I'm going to eat it. Wish > me >>>>>> luck ;-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> arkin >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jean-Jacques Dubray____________________ >>>>>>>> Chief Architect >>>>>>>> Eigner Precision Lifecycle Management >>>>>>>> 200 Fifth Avenue >>>>>>>> Waltham, MA 02451 >>>>>>>> 781-472-6317 >>>>>>>> jjd@eigner.com >>>>>>>> www.eigner.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>> > > This email is confidential and may be protected by legal privilege. 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Received on Thursday, 29 May 2003 14:50:55 UTC