- From: Assaf Arkin <arkin@intalio.com>
- Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 22:51:52 -0800
- To: <abarros@dstc.edu.au>, <ChBussler@aol.com>, <bill.flood@sybase.com>, <public-ws-chor@w3.org>
- Cc: <W.M.P.v.d.Aalst@tm.tue.nl>, <m.dumas@qut.edu.au>, <l.aldred@qut.edu.au>, <a.terhofstede@qut.edu.au>
> I agree, a distinction needs to be made for external > service coordination. This is important when long-running > (web) services - each encapsulating one or more workflows - > interact in B2B style applications. > > I can think of at least three sources that have considered > the issue of external service coorination: > > - Biographical reactive systems proposed by Robin Milner in: > "Bigraphs as a model for Mobile Interaction", First International > Conference, ICGT 2002 I would recommend starting with a previos article by Milner's called "Calculi for Interaction". It describes Action Calculi which is required reading in order to understand bigraphs: ftp://ftp.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rm135/ac9.ps In there you will find a model that unifies PetriNet with process calculi by describing the system as a set of concurrent processes, and also covering controls. More information about push outs is available here: http://pauillac.inria.fr/~leifer/articles/leifer-synlt1.pdf Bigraphs then introduce a graphical model that can describe both the interaction between the processes (the monograph) and the interactions within each process (the topograph) using actions, controls and pushouts: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rm135/bigraphs.ps.gz Of course, I am biased when I stress the importance of these models for the development of concurrent distributed systems ;-) arkin > > - In OMG's specification of an enterprise component > framework, UML Profile for EDOC, there is a modelling > provision (Component Collaboration Architecture) which is > devoted to capturing external interactions regardless of > internal implementations (workflows, EJBs etc). The CCA model > is at the FTF stage - > http://www.omg.org/cgi-bin/doc?ptc/2002-02-05 > > - Inter-workflow messaging and workflow service models > proposed by Arthur ter Hofstede and myself. A discussion > was provided in "Retrofitting workflows for B2B component > assembly", 25th International Conference, COMPSAC 2001. > (I can provide a copy for anyone interested). > > Cheers, Alistair. > > -----Original Message----- > From: public-ws-chor-request@w3.org > [mailto:public-ws-chor-request@w3.org]On Behalf Of ChBussler@aol.com > Sent: Friday, 31 January 2003 9:59 AM > To: "Assaf Arkin"; bill.flood@sybase.com; public-ws-chor@w3.org > Cc: W.M.P.v.d.Aalst@tm.tue.nl; m.dumas@qut.edu.au; l.aldred@qut.edu.au; > a.terhofstede@qut.edu.au; chbussler@aol.com > Subject: RE: Yet Another Choreography Specification > > > > Hi, > > there is another question altogether. 'Plain' web services distinguish the > interface (WSDL) from implementation (your favorite programming language). > > Complex web services have the same issue: distinguishing the external > behavior from the implementation that enforces the external behavior. > > The question is if you need a 'full' workflow/process/etc. > language for the > external behavior definition if this distinction is made. So I > suggest this > discussion, too, at least concurrently, if not upfront. > > Thanks, > > Christoph > > In a message dated 1/30/2003 5:42:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, > "Assaf Arkin" > <arkin@intalio.com> writes: > > > > >I tend to agree with W.M.P. van der Aalst and the conclusion, though I > would > >disagree on the context in which it is presented. > > > >In our research we have concluded that a modern process language, in > >particular one that makes extensive use of messaging, should be based on > >PetriNet and process algebra. While PetriNet is sufficient for modeling > >internal activities, it lacks the ability to describe > interactions between > >concurrent distributed systems. This is where we see the value of process > >algebra. > > > >I have used both models to guide me in working on both BPML and > WSCI. That > >would answer one of the most commonly asked questions: why does BPML and > >WSCI look different from languages based purely on PertiNets? The > difference > >stems from the introduction of process algebra into the underlying model. > > > >I would definitely urge the WS Choreography WG to look at models that > >combine PetriNet with process algebra and pursue the development of a > >specification along these lines. > > > >arkin > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: public-ws-chor-request@w3.org > >> [mailto:public-ws-chor-request@w3.org]On Behalf Of > bill.flood@sybase.com > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 3:54 PM > >> To: public-ws-chor@w3.org > >> Cc: W.M.P.v.d.Aalst@tm.tue.nl; m.dumas@qut.edu.au; l.aldred@qut.edu.au; > >> a.terhofstede@qut.edu.au > >> Subject: Yet Another Choreography Specification > >> > >> > >> All, > >> > >> I seriously considered joining this working group but have > deferred that > >> decision to better try to understand the direction that it is taking. > >> Examining WSCI, BPEL4WS (XLANG., WSFL), BPML, XPDL, and the > host of other > >> "specifications" or notes does not seem fruitful without some > ability to > >> understand them in context of the entire problem. > >> > >> What is needed is a neutral justification for defending the > arrived-upon > >> stance. I'm afraid the alternative is that WS-Chor will simply be > another > >> impotent footnote rendered meaningless by the vendors that have their > >> favorite specification and the ability to push them forward. > After all, > >> minus a logical argument, why should one vendor endorsed standard give > way > >> for just another unjustified standard? > >> > >> An excellent article on this subject can be found at: > >> > >> http://tmitwww.tm.tue.nl/research/patterns/ieeewebflow.pdf > >> > >> The author is on the CC list and my hat is off to him and his > colleagues > >> for this valuable work. I hope that the vendor community can > learn from > >> their efforts. > >> > >> This article is really about recognizing the entire range of workflow > >> patterns that address more than the subsets presented through vendor > >> specific approaches. A markup language has been developed (YAWL) that > >> describes these patterns in XML. Researchers have also mapped from > >> vendor-specific markups to the patterns. > >> > >> The WS-Chor, in my belief, will only be successful if it takes the high > >> road - a defensible position that avoids pitting one vendor approach > >> against another (or for that matter one standards organization against > >> another). If the WS-Chor can see itself in a position of supporting a > >> neutral approach to the choreography issue, the industry as a > whole will > >> benefit and I will be there to support it. > >> > >> Best Regards, > >> > >> --Bill Flood, Sybase > >> > >> Supporting documents in a similar vein can be found at: > >> > >> http://idevnews.com/CaseStudies.asp?ID=52 > >> > >> http://www.daimi.au.dk/CPnets/workshop02/cpn/slides/w_aalst.ppt > >> > >> http://tmitwww.tm.tue.nl/research/patterns/yawl_qut_report_FIT-TR-2002-0 > > -- ------------------------------------------------------ Christoph Bussler ChBussler@aol.com hometown.aol.com/ChBussler/ www.google.com/search?q=bussler www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=bussler&btnI=I%27m+Feeling+Lucky ------------------------------------------------------
Received on Friday, 31 January 2003 01:52:59 UTC