[wot-ig/wg] minutes - 9 October 2019

available at:
  https://www.w3.org/2019/10/09-wot-minutes.html

also as text below.

Thanks a lot for taking the minutes, Taki!

Kazuyuki

---
   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

                               WoT-IG/WG

09 Oct 2019

Attendees

   Present
          Daniel_Peintner, Dave_Raggett, David_Ezell, Ege_Korkan,
          Kaz_Ashimura, Kunihiko_Toumura, Michael_Koster,
          Michael_Lagally, Michael_McCool, Taki_Kamiya,
          Zoltan_Kis, Tetsushi_Matsuda

   Regrets

   Chair
          McCool

   Scribe
          TK

Contents

     * [2]Topics
         1. [3]Agenda and Quick updates
         2. [4]IG charter
         3. [5]Privacy IG
         4. [6]Marketing call
         5. [7]Security
         6. [8]Spec work finalization
         7. [9]Scripting next steps
         8. [10]AOB
     * [11]Summary of Action Items
     * [12]Summary of Resolutions
     __________________________________________________________

   <McCool>
   [13]https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Main_WoT_WebConf#9_Oct_2019

     [13] https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Main_WoT_WebConf#9_Oct_2019

   <kaz> scribenick: taki

   <scribe> scribe: TK

Agenda and Quick updates

   McCool: Scripting is one topic for today
   ... Quick Updates
   ... I, Sebastian and Kaz talked
   ... We may modify our plan for the Singapore f2f.
   ... If you have not booked trip, please hold off.
   ... We may have to tweak things.
   ... I will give more information next week.

IG charter

   McCool: We received 21 supports
   ... We technically passed minimum.

   Kaz: Yes, we already got nice number. Thank you.

Privacy IG

   McCool: we met yesterday.
   ... I now have a plan.
   ... We have time constraints.
   ... next week and half.
   ... by next Friday, we need final version for review.
   ... verbally, we came to a basic agreement.
   ... Arch TF will discuss architecture in architecture call

   Lagally: we received an issue that consists of 5 items. we will
   take a look at it tomorrow in arch call.
   ... architecture call 6am UTC.

   McCool: we have charter call tomorrow.

   Kaz: I can create a wiki for the Charter discussion as well

   McCool: We need to clean current pending issues.

   <kaz> ACTION: kaz to create a wiki page for the WG Charter call

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-184 - Create a wiki page for the wg
   charter call [on Kazuyuki Ashimura - due 2019-10-16].

   McCool: there is an issue filed by Mozilla.
   ... there are a few PRs for that.
   ... #888. This may be controversial.
   ... We need to discuss this in charter call.
   ... Note that PRs still need discussion.
   ... If you have any problems, please file comments before the
   call.

Marketing call

   McCool: Marketing call.

   McCool showing doodle results.

   McCool: Monday 11:00pm in Japan looks the best.
   ... It does not work for Alan Bird and Naomi.
   ... Mizushima-san cannot make it.
   ... The other is 10pm on Thursday.

   <kaz> Mon 7am PDT, 10am EDT, 4pm CEST, 11pm JST

   <kaz> Thu 6am PDT, 9am EDT, 3pm CEST, 10pm JST

   McCool: Naomi can make it though she has monthly conflict.

   Kaz: I suggest 10pm on Thursday then.
   ... we sometimes have a W3C Team internal call at that time,
   though.

   McCool: Thursday 10pm looks best then.
   ... any comments?
   ... in Japan time.
   ... Kaz, please create webex and update the wiki page with the
   information.

   <kaz> ACTION: kaz to allocate a webex for marketing at 10pm
   Thursday

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-185 - Allocate a webex for marketing
   at 10pm thursday [on Kazuyuki Ashimura - due 2019-10-16].

Security

   McCool: There are work to do. But Privacy work is associated
   with discovery.
   ... Security/Privacy/Discovery call can be made together.
   ... People who should be in the call are not in this call.
   ... We have to pick a time for all security experts can make
   it.
   ... We will have a doodle poll.
   ... any other updates?

Spec work finalization

   Kaz: We need to do these three pieces.

   <kaz> 1. sort out all the remaining issues ("v.next" or not):

   <kaz> [14]https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues

     [14] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues

   <kaz> 2. update the timeline:

   <kaz>
   [15]https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_Web
   Conf#Schedule

     [15]
https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#Schedule

   <kaz> 3. update implementation report:

   <kaz>
   [16]https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/testing/report.
   html

     [16] https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/testing/report.html

   McCool: to get to recommendation stage.

   Kaz: Timeline is for this charter period.
   ... each TF needs to update schedule. Please discuss in TF
   calls.

   McCool: Let's discuss WG timeline in charter call.

   Kaz: We can discuss the timeline for new deliverables during
   the Charter call but my point here is timeline for the current
   charter period :)
   ... so let's talk about the above points during the TF calls
   (Arch call tomorrow, TD call Friday)

   McCool: Implementation reports need to be run again.
   ... normative assertions, test cases are changed, and
   implementation report needs to be created again.
   ... end of next week, we will have a draft for publication
   ready.

   Lagally: assume we have a candidate draft by next week, what is
   the timeline after that before the next charter starts?

   McCool: Dec 19, we can file request for PR. There is no slack
   in timeline.

   Kaz: I think we need to work with PLH as well once we get an
   updated timeline.

   Lagally: McCool, can you make the arch call tomorrow?

   McCool: Yes, I will try to attend.

Scripting next steps

   <zkis>[17]Link to the Scripting slides

     [17]
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1U7kr8OheIBiBAfz1TTu5XCfvfh-S5zqFquvfxhvzUho/edit?usp=sharing

   Zoltan: In TPAC, Daniel made an update presentation.
   ... I made a draft for publication.
   ... possible next step is this presentation.
   ... There are gaps.

   what's missing is explained using web vs. wot analogy...

   Zoltan: we cannot have links to scripts, download and run
   scripts.
   ... package management is missing.
   ... multi-tenant is missing.

   Zoltan explains WOT architecture...

   WoT services... abstract interfaces.

   Zoltan: interaction model implementation is minimum
   requirements.
   ... Underneath there are protocols and system APIs.
   ... scripting is optional.
   ... there were approaches to scripting API.
   ... We got use cases in Munich from Victor.
   ... Scripts can describe operational behaviour.
   ... This can be exposed and exchanged, according to victor.
   ... victor lists a few use cases and issues.
   ... script identification, for example.
   ... and vocabulary for apps. This is an incubation item for IG.
   ... scripts in cloud, local hubs, and things.
   ... where to deploy depends on implementation.
   ... there are implementations nod-wot, arena web hub, and
   mozilla, etc.
   ... all in common is they all depends on Node.js
   ... they all use npm.
   ... what happens on the edge?

   Zoltan showing edgex architecture picture...

   Zoltan: container on the edge. this is very complex.
   ... microcontroller which runs Zephyr OS.
   ... which supports coap, http, websockets, etc.
   ... this can support native apps which can be flashed with a
   fill image.
   ... This is not very different from Node.js.
   ... deployment/running requirements.
   ... security - multi-tenant.
   ... should support multiple programming languages.
   ... we need SW management API. discover, deploy, etc.
   ... scripts referenced from web pages by link...
   ... we need to define sandbox ourselves.
   ... WASM runs fast.
   ... intermediary format, includes clickable links.
   ... source language can be c, c++, Rust, etc.
   ... LLVM, Binaryen are intermediary languages.
   ... multiple source languages go through intermediary language,
   finally become web assembly.
   ... WASM can access Javascript and DOM.

   McCool: JavaScript cannot be included in WASM?

   Zoltan: Yes.
   ... browser is a bit complex.
   ... more apps moving to PWA + WASM.
   ... e.g. AutoCAD, VLC apps.

   McCool: Fugu is a collection of APIs. too dangerous to include
   in browser. WoT can use it.

   Zoltan: Mozilla is quite big on this.
   ... there are many helper projects for this.
   ... WASI, wasmtime, etc.

   Zoltan shows how to develop WASM...

   Zoltan: WASI is the interface to host system.

   Zoltan showing WASM micro runtime...

   Zoltan: we need to develop native WoT cradle implementation.

   Zoltan shows WoT with WASM and WASI...

   Zoltan: to implement protocols, use WASI bindings.
   ... Implement interaction by WASM code.
   ... Provide a TD with WASM code.

   Lagally: This is one implementation?

   Zoltan: Yes.

   McCool: Is this progressive web apps?

   Zoltan: no.
   ... It does not matter which languages are used.

   ZoZoltan shows deployment scenarios...

   Zoltan: Manufacture implements WoT server is one.
   ... container-driven runtime...
   ... variant is WASM.
   ... edgex and can be orchestrated by Kubernetes.
   ... PWA with WASM and run in bowsers...
   ... there are options.

   Zoltan suggests realistic option...

   Zoltan suggests next steps...

   Zoltan suggests how to continue scripting work...

   Zoltan: continue in WoT WG. there was a formal objection
   against Scripting API as a normative spec.
   ... WoT IG
   ... Third option is WoT CG, or new WoT scripting CG.
   ... with clean and clear scope.
   ... CG can attract more participants.
   ... there are lots of successful CGs that develop APIs.
   ... WoT CG is not active.
   ... Let's discuss. Please give feedback.
   ... This slide is available.

   McCool: when do we have joint call among three groups?
   ... there are IP requirement differences.
   ... there will be separate CG call.
   ... eventually we try to make scripint a REC.
   ... incubate in CG, going through IG...
   ... Kaz, how can we transition the Scripting work to the
   possible CG?

   Kaz: usually an IG generates use cases and requirements, and
   possibly bring the ideas to a CG
   ... then a CG generates draft spec as a CG report
   ... then possibly bring it to a WG to make it a W3C REC
   ... so I think if we restart with use cases and requirements at
   a CG, that's fine
   ... but we want to bring the current Scripting draft directly
   to the CG, I need to check with PLH and Wendy.

   McCool: btw, the Web and Networks IG working on edge computing.
   ... container-based approaches.
   ... we can collaborate with them.

   Zoltan: I am in that IG as well.

   Daniel: new exploratory can be done in CG.

   Lagally: Objection was about making normative.

   Zoltan: we should ask the commenter who objected to the
   Scripting API as a normative deliverable.

   McCool: we should discuss use cases.

   Lagally: IG can start work in scripting.

   McCool: We need to discuss more.

   Ege: Consumer vs. server API are different aspects.
   ... browser people consumer side, and device side are
   different.

   Zoltan: new API version covers the two.

   Ege: technology is different.

   Kaz: FYI, the IG charter review suggests to work with the Web
   and Networks IG, so we should work with them in any case :)

   McCool: for deployment, we should collaborate.
   ... Do we want to wrap up?
   ... Let's discuss CG issue in marketing call.

AOB

   McCool: no plugfest call today.
   ... we need to improve how to organize plugfest.
   ... Please volunteer for plugfest organizer.
   ... we need to transition to conformance, validation,
   interoperability.

   <inserted> kaz: yeah, also it would be great if we could have
   an integrated service for that like the Web Platform Testing
   site.

   McCool: next 2 weeks, let's focus on getting CR out.

   Daniel: marketing call to Thursday, but Tomorrow will we have
   one?

   Kaz: would suggest we restart marketing discussion next week
   because we should concentrate on the spec work for Architecture
   and TD this week

   Sebastian: we should focus on specification out for now.
   ... next week call is ok

   McCool: marketing call is next week.
   ... in new time slot.
   ... adjourned.

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: kaz to allocate a webex for marketing at 10pm
   Thursday
   [NEW] ACTION: kaz to create a wiki page for the WG Charter call

Summary of Resolutions

   [End of minutes]
     __________________________________________________________


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