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Re: [whatwg] Adding features needed for WebGL to ImageBitmap

From: Justin Novosad <junov@google.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2013 18:46:38 -0700
Message-ID: <CABpaAqQSedMJyPXtkPsv15wBA-9w_nhNt-78HVORQ4NMJNw2pg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Rik Cabanier <cabanier@gmail.com>
Cc: WHATWG <whatwg@whatwg.org>, Kenneth Russell <kbr@google.com>, Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>, "Tab Atkins Jr." <jackalmage@gmail.com>
On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 4:34 PM, Rik Cabanier <cabanier@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 7:18 AM, Justin Novosad <junov@google.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Ken, that makes it much clearer to me.
>>
>> The main concern I have with all this is the potential for OOM crashes.
>>  I'm happy as long as the spec remains vague about what "undue latency"
>> means, so we still have the possibility of gracefully degrading performance
>> in low memory conditions by evicting prepared/decoded buffers when
>> necessary, to only hang on to compressed copies in the in-memory resource
>> cache.  As far as the decode cache is concerned, the idea I have is to give
>> priority to pixel buffers that are held by ImageBitmap objects, and only
>> evict them as a last resort.
>>
>
> So, you are OK with double storing of the image data?
> This will make Canvas 2D a lot slower since it didn't have to care about
> this before so ImageBitmap didn't have to store the original data. I'd
> rather see an exception if the options are not canvas 2d-compatible than
> having to double the memory and introduce extra processing.
>

Actually, in that comment I was referring to the double copies in RAM that
we already have today in WebKit/Blink: The image data associated with an
image element may be in RAM twice: in compressed form in the resource
cache, and in uncompressed form in the decoded image cache.

But to circle back to your point, I agree that an exception is a good idea
to avoid having to hold a triplicate copy in RAM, or having to redecode all
the time.  Better to force the dev to make additional copies explicitly if
needed than to make a potentially uselessly costly implementation.


>
>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 4:24 PM, Kenneth Russell <kbr@google.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 8:29 AM, Justin Novosad <junov@google.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 9:37 PM, Rik Cabanier <cabanier@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 5:07 PM, Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> > On Wed, 10 Jul 2013, Kenneth Russell wrote:
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > ImageBitmap can cleanly address all of the desired use cases
>>> simply by
>>> >> > > adding an optional dictionary of options.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I don't think that's true. The options only make sense for WebGL --
>>> >> > flipping which pixel is the first pixel, for example, doesn't do
>>> >> > anything
>>> >> > to 2D canvas, which works at a higher level.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > (The other two options don't make much sense to me even for GL. If
>>> you
>>> >> > don't want a color space, don't set one. If you don't want an alpha
>>> >> > channel, don't set one. You control the image, after all.)
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > > I suspect that in the future some options will be desired even
>>> for the
>>> >> > > 2D canvas use case, and having the dictionary already specified
>>> will
>>> >> > > make that easier. There is no need to invent a new primitive and
>>> means
>>> >> > > of loading it.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > If options make sense for 2D canvas, then having ImageBitmap options
>>> >> > would
>>> >> > make sense, sure.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> yeah, these options seem a bit puzzling.
>>> >> From the spec:
>>> >>
>>> >> An ImageBitmap object represents a bitmap image that can be painted
>>> to a
>>> >> canvas without undue latency.
>>> >>
>>> >> note: The exact judgement of what is undue latency of this is left up
>>> to
>>> >> the implementer, but in general if making use of the bitmap requires
>>> >> network I/O, or even local disk I/O, then the latency is probably
>>> undue;
>>> >> whereas if it only requires a blocking read from a GPU or system RAM,
>>> the
>>> >> latency is probably acceptable.
>>> >>
>>> >> It seems that people see the imageBitmap as something that doesn't
>>> just
>>> >> represent in-memory pixels but that those pixels are also
>>> preprocessed so
>>> >> they can be drawn quickly. The latter is not in the spec.
>>> >>
>>> >> I think authors will be very confused by these options. What would it
>>> mean
>>> >> to pass a non-premultiplied ImageBitmap to a canvas object? Would the
>>> >> browser have to add code to support it or is it illegal?
>>> >> Maybe it's easier to add an optional parameter to createImageBitmap to
>>> >> signal if the ImageBitmap is for WebGL or for Canvas and disallow a
>>> Canvas
>>> >> ImageBitmap in WebGL and vice versa.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > You are implying a pretty heavy imposition as to what constitutes undue
>>> > latency.
>>> > I think the spec should stay away from forcing implementations to pin
>>> > decoded image buffers in RAM (or on the GPU), so that the browser may
>>> have
>>> > some latitude in preventing out of memory exceptions. In its current
>>> form,
>>> > the spec implies that it would be acceptable for an implementation to
>>> > discard the decoded buffer and only retain the resource in encoded
>>> form in
>>> > RAM.  Do we really need to make further optimizations explicit? For
>>> example,
>>> > an implementation could prepare the image data for use with WebGL the
>>> first
>>> > time it is drawn to WebGL, and keep it cached in that state. If the
>>> same
>>> > ImageBitmap is subsequently drawn to a 2D canvas, then it would use the
>>> > non-WebGLified copy, which may be cached, or may require re-decoding
>>> the
>>> > image. No big deal.
>>>
>>> The step of preparing the image for use, either with WebGL or 2D
>>> canvas, is expensive. Today, this step is necessarily done
>>> synchronously when an HTMLImageElement is uploaded to WebGL. The
>>> current ImageBitmap proposal would still require this synchronous
>>> step, so for WebGL at least, it provides no improvement over the
>>> current HTML5 APIs. A major goal of ImageBitmap was to allow Web
>>> Workers to load them, and even this ability currently provides no
>>> advantage over HTMLImageElement.
>>
>>
>>> > Fundamental question: Do we really need the caller to be able to
>>> specify
>>> > what treatments need to be applied to prepare an image for WebGL, or
>>> is it
>>> > always possible to figure that out automatically?
>>>
>>> It is never possible to figure out automatically how the image needs
>>> to be treated when preparing it for use with WebGL. I'm not sure where
>>> that idea came from. On the contrary, there are eight possibilities
>>> (2^3), and different applications require different combinations.
>>>
>>> -Ken
>>>
>>
>>
>
Received on Monday, 15 July 2013 01:47:06 UTC

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