Re: [whatwg] Hardware accelerated canvas

----- Original Message -----
> On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 00:14:49 +0200, Benoit Jacob <bjacob@mozilla.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> On Sun, 2 Sep 2012, Erik Möller wrote:
> >> >
> >> > As we hardware accelerate the rendering of , not just with
> >> > the webgl
> >> > context, we have to figure out how to best handle the fact that
> >> > GPUs loose the
> >> > rendering context for various reasons. Reasons for loosing the
> >> > context differ
> >> > from platform to platform but ranges from going into power-save
> >> > mode, to
> >> > internal driver errors and the famous long running shader
> >> > protection.
> >> > A lost context means all resources uploaded to the GPU will be
> >> > gone
> >> > and have
> >> > to be recreated. For canvas it is not impossible, though IMO
> >> > prohibitively
> >> > expensive to try to automatically restore a lost context and
> >> > guarantee the
> >> > same behaviour as in software.
> >> > The two options I can think of would be to:
> >> > a) read back the framebuffer after each draw call.
> >> > b) read back the framebuffer before the first draw call of a
> >> > "frame" and build
> >> > a display list of all other draw operations.
> >> >
> >> > Neither seem like a particularly good option if we're looking to
> >> > actually
> >> > improve on canvas performance. Especially on mobile where
> >> > read-back
> >> > performance is very poor.
> >> >
> >> > The WebGL solution is to fire an event and let the
> >> > js-implementation deal with
> >> > recovering after a lost context
> >> > http://www.khronos.org/registry/webgl/specs/latest/#5.15.2
> >> >
> >> > My preferred option would be to make a generic context lost
> >> > event
> >> > for canvas,
> >> > but I'm interested to hear what people have to say about this.
> >>
> >> Realistically, there are too many pages that have 2D canvases that
> >> are
> >> drawn to once and never updated for any solution other than "don't
> >> lose
> >> the data" to be adopted. How exactly this is implemented is a
> >> quality
> >> of
> >> implementation issue.
> >
> > With all the current graphics hardware, this means "don't use a
> > GL/D3D
> > surface to implement the 2d canvas drawing buffer storage", which
> > implies: "don't hardware-accelerate 2d canvases".
> >
> > If we agree that 2d canvas acceleration is worth it despite the
> > possibility of context loss, then Erik's proposal is really the
> > only
> > thing to do, as far as current hardware is concerned.
> >
> > Erik's proposal doesn't worsen the problem in anyway --- it
> > acknowledges
> > a problem that already exists and offers to Web content a way to
> > recover
> > from it.
> >
> > Hardware-accelerated 2d contexts are no different from
> > hardware-accelerated WebGL contexts, and WebGL's solution has been
> > debated at length already and is known to be the only thing to do
> > on
> > current hardware. Notice that similar solutions preexist in the
> > system
> > APIs underlying any hardware-accelerated canvas context: Direct3D's
> > lost
> > devices, EGL's lost contexts, OpenGL's ARB_robustness context loss
> > statuses.
> >
> > Benoit
> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.
> >>    fL
> >> http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\
> >>  ;`._
> >> ,.
> >> Things that are impossible just take longer.
> >>   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
> 
> I agree with Benoit, this is already an existing problem, I'm just
> pointing the spotlight at it. If we want to take advantage of
> hardware
> acceleration on canvas this is an issue we will have to deal with.
> 
> I don't particularly like this idea, but for the sake of having all
> the
> options on the table I'll mention it. We could default to the "old
> behaviour" and have an opt in for hardware accelerated canvas in
> which
> case you would have to respond to said context lost event.

Two objections against this:

1. Remember this adage from high-performance computing which applies here as well: "The fast drives out the slow even if the fast is wrong". Browsers want to have good performance on Canvas games, demos and benchmarks. Users want good performance too. GL/D3D helps a lot there, at the cost of a rather rare -- and practically untestable -- problem with context loss. So browsers are going to use GL/D3D, period. On the desktop, most browsers already do. It seems impossible for the spec to require not using GL/D3D and get obeyed.

2. This would effectively force browsers to ship an implementation that does not rely on GL/D3D. For browsers that do have a GL/D3D based canvas implementation and target platforms where GL/D3D availability can be taken for granted (typically on mobile devices), it is reasonable to expect that in the foreseeable future they might want to get rid of their non-GL/D3D canvas impl.

Benoit


> That would
> allow the existing content to keep working as it is without changes.
> It
> would be more work for vendors, but it's up to every vendor to decide
> how
> to best solve it, either by doing it in software or using the
> expensive
> read back alternative in hardware.
> 
> Like I said, not my favourite option, but I agree it's bad to break
> the
> web.
> 
> --
> Erik Möller
> Core Gfx Lead
> Opera Software
> twitter.com/erikjmoller
>

Received on Monday, 3 September 2012 13:09:36 UTC