- From: Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>
- Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2010 10:50:35 +0000 (UTC)
On Fri, 26 Nov 2010, Charles Pritchard wrote: > > I want to suggestion a reason for this impasse: the WHATWG intends to > produce a scene-graph specification. Other activities are out of scope. Insofar as there is a WHATWG philosophy, it is that the spec written here will match implementations, and that within that restriction, it will be based on concrete use cases. Different contributors (including myself and any implementors) may have different further intentions, but I wouldn't describe them as goals of the WHATWG. I'm not sure what you really mean by "scene-graph specification", so it's hard to comment on that specifically. Historically, and still today, the HTML language and its associated APIs are generally intended to primarily convey semantics (meaning, as opposed to presentation) so that they can be rendered in a media-independent way on any device. If there is a philosophy regarding accessibility specifically, it's that the goal is to concretely improve the experience of users with unusual needs or interaction modalities, not just to improve the theoretically possible maximum accessibility. In particular, this means that we should prefer solutions that most authors will use in a mostly accessible way over solutions that a few authors will use in a perfectly accessible way but that most authors will use in an inaccessible way. > Is the WHATWG the proper forum for discussion about WebApps, or is such > discussion better left to the W3C WebApps group and associated groups? The WHATWG list is an appropriate forum for discussing Web platform technologies, especially those being specified in WHATWG specs or not being specified anywhere at all. (So something like JS or HTTP, while also Web platform technologies, are probably more productively discussed in the TR39 and HTTP working groups respectively; we probably won't do much to change them by discussing it here.) > These applications have radically different constraints and use cases > than the standard and accessible presentation of markup -- of hypertext > documents. "Document" and "Application" are merely two extremes of one continuous spectrum, in practice. HTML and the other technologies specified in the WHATWG cater to both and everything in between. ("WHAT" stands for "Web Hypertext Application Technology", which is a pretty good description of the scope of the work here.) > With the group focused on developing a standard scene-graph, I understand > completely why text-editing should be left to HTML Next Form elements Text editing is handled by two HTML elements, a content attribute, and an IDL attribute: <input>, <textarea>, contenteditable="", and .designMode respectively. Work certainly needs to happen to improve these features and APIs, but it is not something that is being left to the future, we're specifying it right now and these features are widely implemented. Using features such as contentEditable, that convey the underlying intent of the author (that is, the semantics) is the primary way we achieve an accessible design. This is especially true when viewed in the context of the aforementioned philosophy of aiming for concrete accessibility gains over theoretical ones. We know from experience that authors rarely provide dedicated secondary content, with the fraction of authors doing so being reduced as more effort is necessary to provide alternative content. For example, alt="" has probably the most success as alternative content solutions go, while only slightly more complicated features like HTML4's summary="" have significantly less usage, and features only as complicated as longdesc="" see virtually no practical use. Providing an alternative for <canvas> text editing is in contrast orders of magnitude more complicated. One can therefore assume with some confidence that it would not be a good way to achieve practical accessibility in the real world. Several alternatives exist, as noted earlier: contenteditable="", for instance, is more or less automatically accessible and thus a significantly better choice for this solution space. -- Ian Hickson U+1047E )\._.,--....,'``. fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A /, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Received on Saturday, 27 November 2010 02:50:35 UTC