- From: Jorgen Horstink <mail@jorgenhorstink.nl>
- Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 10:17:57 +0200
I've been following this discussion for a while and I agree a new '_tab' target is not necessary. To my mind _blank implies a new browser canvas. There are two implementations for creating a new canvas these days; a new window, or a new tab. The key question is: what does _blank mean? Does it only mean 'a new window'? Or does it mean 'a new canvas'? To my mind it means the latter. I don't see why HTML should bother with user experience (new tab, or new window). This has more to do with style sheets (also this is arguably to my mind). -jorgen On Jun 13, 2008, at 10:03 AM, Jo?o Eiras wrote: > 2008/6/13 Borek Bernard <borekbe at yahoo.co.uk>: >> Hi Jo?o, >> >> you're right that everything important has been already said. I >> have withdrawn this proposal because it has been pointed out that it >> is not backwards compatible and the correct solution will be part of >> CSS3 anyway (which is much more flexible - we will have not only >> target-new, but also target-position; I guess you strongly dislike >> both of them). > > What's lovely about css, is that features like this can be easily > disabled with local stylesheet. Overriding _tab would requiring > running local script, which greater performance impact, and migh thave > unforseen consequences. So css gives greater control, with less > effort. > >> >> But the discussion has been interesting anyway. There is probably no >> point in carrying on because we see the problem from two different >> standpoints - you want to have the specs as "pure" as possible >> while I >> want them to be as flexible as possible so that it can accommodate >> any >> use case you can think of. > > It's not about being pure, it's about not giving more control to the > webpage than it should have. For a webpage running in a tab or > separate window is exactly the same thing. > > >> I kind of understand why simpler standards are better than the longer >> ones but on the other hand, the lack of "_tab" or something similar >> makes my user experience on some websites suboptimal (heck, even >> frustrating sometimes). If you can't appreciate that different users >> can have different user preferences ("I can't honestly come up with a >> single reason why a webpage should open a new window instead of >> tab"), > > This is not a user preference. It's the complete opposite. The spec > would allow a user preference to be broken by spaning windows or tabs > accordingly to the webpage author's liking. > Historically, we've seen that giving webpage control over the user's > browser in someway can be abused: alert(), open(), oncontextmenu ... > >> you will probably have hard times understanding my points. But your >> view is quite common as I've learned :) > > > >> Regards, >> Borek >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Jo?o Eiras <joao.eiras at gmail.com> >> To: Borek Bernard <borekbe at yahoo.co.uk>; whatwg at lists.whatwg.org >> Sent: Thursday, 12 June, 2008 7:17:19 PM >> Subject: Re: [whatwg] Proposal: target="_tab" >> >> Hi ! I didn't saw that reply. >> >>> I'm not sure why you keep insisting that it's up to the browser -- >>> IMO, it's >>> up to the USER. >> >> You're not understanding me: >> when I say browser, obviously I mean client, client-side, browser, >> user or whatever you want to call it, as opposed to web application >> or >> server-side >> >>> Also, having means to open new tabs as opposed to new windows in >>> the specs >>> is nothing against the user preference, in fact, it helps to >>> express the >>> user preference if the browser fails to provide it. >> >> Then we're going to bloat a specification due to browser >> idiosyncrasies ? >> Allowing a page to control such behavior would be bad. Currently >> browsers with tabbed interface manage to unclutter the taskbar and >> desktop, while aggregate pages inside a single window, which is >> overall good for the user's experience, good for performance, good >> usability. >> >> We'd be providing a mechanism that is not backwards compatible with >> the current state of the art user agents, although we've seen that >> new >> features heavily demanded get implemented quickly, and we'd be >> providing, again, authors with mechanism to degrade the user's >> experience. >> >> I can't honestly come up with a single reason why a webpage should >> open a new window instead of tab. All use cases you can come up fit >> better if new tabs are open. If you don't like the fact that a tab >> fits the entire window, you can either detach it, your use a user >> agent that support MDI interface. >> >> With all this say now your going to tell me I'm contradicting myself >> by supporting windows now. No, you'd be wrong. I'd expect a browser >> to >> always open tabs if there's a _blank target. Having _target and_tab >> would require UA's to support two different way of opening new pages: >> tabbed and detached ones. >> >> For me it's all a matter of letting the user control the web page. >> >> Considering this discussion is still going to last a bit, and >> everything significant that could be said by me and others was >> said, I >> rest my case. >> >> Cheers. >> >> >> 2008/6/12 Kristof Zelechovski <giecrilj at stegny.2a.pl>: >>> Programmatically controlling the containment of a new window is a >>> two-edged >>> sword: you can provide for the lame user agent but you can also >>> override >>> user settings. The latter possibility is more painful; upgrading >>> the >>> browser is easier than dealing with an impertinent Web site. >>> IMHO, >>> Chris >>> P.S.: If you want your answer to go to Jo?o only, just send it >>> exclusively >>> to him. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Borek Bernard [mailto:borekbe at yahoo.co.uk] >>> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 11:25 AM >>> To: Joao Eiras; Kristof Zelechovski; Ian Hickson; whatwg at lists.whatwg.org >>> Subject: Re: [whatwg] Proposal: target="_tab" >>> >>> Hi Jo?o, >>> >>> I'm not sure why you keep insisting that it's up to the browser -- >>> IMO, it's >>> up to the USER. Please read all my arguments before, it's not true >>> that a >>> user using a tabbed browser always prefers opening new tabs >>> instead of new >>> windows. That's just your user preference. >>> >>> Also, having means to open new tabs as opposed to new windows in >>> the specs >>> is nothing against the user preference, in fact, it helps to >>> express the >>> user preference if the browser fails to provide it. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail. >> A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html >> >
Received on Friday, 13 June 2008 01:17:57 UTC