- From: Christoph Päper <christoph.paeper@tu-clausthal.de>
- Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 00:23:43 +0200
Matthew Raymond:
> Christoph P?per wrote:
>
> The <div> (as well as <span>) does indeed have semantic meaning in
> that it can group things. However, in the case of replacing <hr>, I
> don't see how this semantic information can actually be used to benefit
> the user. It's certainly useless on modern browsers from a presentation
> standpoint if I turn CSS off.
Okay, with the goals of WHAT-WG and HTML5 it's maybe acceptable to
retain 'hr', but for XHTML2, which wants to make a clean re-start, this
unsemantic element type (under whatever name) must go.
> Oh really? So you're saying that if I have some text...
>
> | Paragraph 3
> | * * *
> | Paragraph 4
>
> ...it's more natural for an author to do this...
>
> | <p>Paragraph 3</p>
> | </section>
> | <section>
> | <p>Paragraph 4</p>
>
> (...) instead of this:
>
> | <p>Paragraph 3</p>
> | <hr>
> | <p>Paragraph 4</p>
Yes. It's just like
Foo
<br>
Bar
versus
Foo
</p><p>
Bar.
> | <section>
> | <p>Paragraph 1</p>
> | </section>
> | <section>
> | <p>Meanwhile, Paragraph 2</p>
> | <p>Paragraph 3</p>
> | </section>
> | <section>
> | <p>Paragraph 4</p>
> | <p>Paragraph 5</p>
> | </section>
> | <section>
> | <p>At the same time, Paragraph 6</p>
> | </section>
That's why I said that you could also use 'class' on 'p' instead of
'div' around 'p' to do the grouping. I also don't see a problem with
'div' here, though, because it does just have to group the perspectives
inside a chapter. Of course you would have to add 'div' in all 'section'
of a kind---it doesn't make sense to add that structural layer only
where you want visual separators (at the moment). I know that dropping
'hr' means more mark-up, but also better.
>> in all the alledged use cases that have
>> presented in favor of 'hr' or 'separator', I see a structure (or
>> hierarchy), that demands not a divider but a grouper.
>
> The presentation doesn't demand grouping, it demands a separator.
No, it demands visual /separation/. A separator like 'hr' is just one
way to achieve this. Perhaps the main problem for many (here) is, that
current browsers don't render adjacent 'div' notably.
> I can't think of any behavior implied by <hr>, and you don't
> provide a use case for why we need the extra grouping elements or how
> they will be used.
I don't want extra grouping element types (if you meant that), 'div' is
just fine.
I already gave examples like extraction or background visuals or audio;
many other stylings are possible (e.g. alternating alignment).
Received on Wednesday, 8 June 2005 15:23:43 UTC