- From: Coralie Mercier <coralie@w3.org>
- Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 21:44:17 +0200
- To: public-website-redesign <public-website-redesign@w3.org>
Hi all,
The minutes of the meeting to "Choosing a front end framework” are available (and in text below):
https://www.w3.org/2020/06/11-redesign-minutes.html
> On 10 Jun 2020, at 17:40 , xueyuan <xueyuan@w3.org> wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> This is a reminder about the upcoming Project Review on W3C website redesign: Choosing a front end framework.
>
> Reference material can been seen at:
> https://w3c.studio24.net/docs/choosing-front-end-framework/
>
> Presenter: Coralie Mercier
> Date: Thursday, 11 June 2020
> Time: 1300 UTC (60 minutes)
> […]
>
> On 6/5/20 4:39 AM, Coralie Mercier wrote:
>> Dear team, Léonie, fantasai,
>>
>> Choosing a front end framework is probably one of the key milestones in the W3C Website (phase 1) redesign project, and I would like to make sure that we get the appropriate review to help us make the best decision.
>>
>> Studio 24 (who as an agency would prefer to work with Apollo but understand if the need to use a standard tool such as Bootstrap is required and will work with this if it's the better option for W3C) have reviewed the questions around HTML/CSS frameworks and have written up the pros and cons of Bootstrap and Apollo.
>>
>> I’m seeking wide review and feedback until next Thursday, June 11. (cf. mail below, archived in <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-website-redesign/2020Jun/0001.html> and W3C blog post <https://www.w3.org/blog/2020/06/w3c-website-redesign-choosing-a-front-end-framework/>.)
>> Team should share feedback on the public mailing list but can do so on the team-website-redesign mailing list if they prefer.
>>
>> In addition, I would like to schedule the following week a project review. This takes place Thursdays at 1300 UTC for 60 minutes.
>>
>> The project review would be open to the team, Léonie and fantasai if they are willing and available (as well as any other key participating folks from the community —please let me know who you think I should invite), with guest Simon Jones and Nicola Saunders of Studio 24. The objective of the review is to present the choices, assess any feedback received in the past 7 days, address questions and try to converge on an informed decision.
>>
>> Coralie
Text version:
=============
Project review: Choosing a front-end framework
11 June 2020
[2]IRC log.
[2] https://www.w3.org/2020/06/11-redesign-irc
Attendees
Present
Bert, Coralie, denis, fantasai, francois, Gerald, ivan,
Jean-Gui, Jeff, Kaz, Léonie, Nicola_Saunders, plh,
Ralph, Richard, Sam, Simon_Jones, Ted, vivien, weiler,
wseltzer
Regrets
Dom, Xueyuan
Chair
koalie
Scribe
koalie
Contents
1. [3]Systeam feedback
2. [4]Framework? Apollo not being a framework in the same way
Bootstrap is
3. [5]New changes in the future
4. [6]Testing
5. [7]Doc and community
6. [8]Maintenance
7. [9]Licensing
8. [10]Deadline
Meeting minutes
Systeam feedback
<vivien>
<vivien> The Systems Team discussed this topic yesterday.
<vivien> You will find minutes here:
<vivien> [11]https://www.w3.org/2020/06/
10-systeam-minutes#item01
[11] https://www.w3.org/2020/06/10-systeam-minutes#item01
<vivien> The main points were:
<vivien> Testing: Apollo v2 is really new and we would be the
first ones to use it, meaning it has not received a lot of
testing yet, which ultimately means there will be bugs as for
any new project being release
<vivien> Maintenance: What kind of maintenance can we expect
after the final version of the website is released and more
generally on the long term (to handle issues reported by our
users or to use on other pages)
<vivien> Documentation and community: seems to be a key aspect.
Bootstrap has a huge community and documentation available,
even if Apollo is on GitHub it does not seem to have any
community, so we can't really call this an open source project.
<vivien> Deadline: You mention it might take more time for you
if you were to use Bootstrap, what would be the impact on the
project timeline?
<vivien> ]]
[Vivien summarizes the above]
Framework? Apollo not being a framework in the same way Bootstrap is
Simon: we might have confused things a bit by calling Apollo a
framework
… while it's our agency's approach to building websites
… the team has been using that [since 2017] in the work we do
… Nick is looking as v2
… this approach lets us work on project more efficiently
… We open sourced it as it's easy to do
Nicki: Apollo is really about giving us a means to quickly
start working on a new project
… consistent
<fantasai> My comments posted to [12]https://lists.w3.org/
Archives/Public/public-website-redesign/2020Jun/0004.html fwiw
[12] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-website-redesign/2020Jun/0004.html
Nicki: uses vanilla html css
Jeff: the confusion I have re: framework is that I'm not sure
the breadth of the statement of what apollo does
… we build web pages for our website
… are the people going to use apollo?
Simon: It's for us to help build the CSS
… once we're done, you'll have a bunch of html templates and
css
… so if people want to use the new design they will have to use
the templates
… we'll document that in a design system
… apollo will end up being a small part of what we'll end up
building for you
fantasai: I made a whole bunch of comment
… that I won't repeat
… It's important to know that Apollo is like a skeleton with a
bunch of patterns
… set of CSS rules and maybe some javascript
… so you don't have to build common components like tabbed
navigation, sidebar layouts, etc. from scratch
… if you write a website with html and css, it will not break
down
<Ralph> [13]fantasai's comments to public-website-redesign
[13] https://www.w3.org/2020/06/11-redesign-irc#T13-10-51
fantasai: maintenance, if you need to improve, is only needed
… to make it better
… so not concerned about the maintenance question
Nicki: Thanks fantasai for the comments
… what we're trying to do with apollo isn't very far from html
and css
… allows us to add a minimal lay of customization
Léonie: Nicki just confirmed that apollo is an accelerator
… so it's a good thing
… I agree maintenability is an important aspect
… also, endorsement:
… as soon as W3C chooses a framework there's an implicit
endorsement
… also, leading by example
… apollo seems to stick to the good basic ideas of HTML and CSS
… and W3C could take this stance
… lastly,
… accessibility is important
… I looked at apollo
<fantasai> Bert, in some ways yes, but in some ways "fix things
that are broken" is a large part of what's considered
"maintenance", and HTML and CSS don't "break" going forward :)
Léonie: pretty good, with a few things to look at
… but far more accessible than Bootstrap
… accessibillity can be gnarly
… my recommendation is to use apollo.
Richard: I know next to nothing about these things
… what I'd like to know is: are these frameworks tools to
create the templates?
… or will people like me who contribute pages need to know that
framework?
Nicki: apollo is about building components and layouts
… there needs to be another decision on what CMS to use
… apollo is about front-end styling
<weiler> [thank you for the clarification that CMS is in-scope
and also not ripe]
Nicki: there should not be much need to change the CSS
… there will be guidelines on typography and colour
Richard: Would I, if I want to create a page in the future,
will have to understand apollo to use the templates that are
available?
Vivien: today anyone can start a page from scratch, literally
… we're trying to move away from that
… team will lose some freedom in their ability to create web
pages
… in the name of a more harmonious website, consistent, and
with better branding
… pages will be started from a common ground
… via a CMS
… your focus will be on the content, not the page itself
Richard: I hope that when we put the site together we take i18n
into account as well as a11y
… language labels, right to left, etc.
Nicki: We're very aware of the global nature of W3C
… we're keen to add to apollo something for i18n
Simon: bidirectional text, for example
Richard: It would be essential to have support for bidi content
Simon: Right
Nicki: we want to support CSS logical properties
… fallback will be needed
Richard: great to hear
<Zakim> Ralph, you wanted to ask to what Simon was referring
when he said "might document"
Ralph: Richard just proved my point in IRC: he does know a lot!
… I had a question for Simon
… in response to Jeff's question on components apollo provides
… I heard you say that there are things you *might* document
… which things might be important to our long-term use of the
site?
Simon: slip of the tongue
… we intend to deliver a design system
… to explain the templates
… so that the team can build more web pages
Simon: it's going to be more than apollo
… we're aiming to document as much as possible
… sorry for using "might"
Ralph: if we want to create components on our own, will there
be documentation for that?
Simon: that depends on the CMS question
… not a hundred percent sure
Kaz: Many mechanisms for W3C pages
… some manually edited, some generated, some mirrored from GH
… we should think about which part should be handled by which
and how to combine
… and how to integrate all of them is the key
Simon: the design system (documentation) is intended to be
static html
… we can integrate this in any system you use
<Zakim> Bert, you wanted to say that "maintenance" and "making
it better" is not that distinct.
Bert: back to a point fantasai made
… maintenance indeed may not be needed
… but between maintenance and improvement there is a fine line
… sometimes people need just a little bit more
… [Bert gives an example of adding ability to have three images
in a row with captions, by adding a few lines of CSS]
… in any case, we need to know a bit of the existing
stylesheets in order to extend them for
(improvement|maintenance)
… so it's not just writing one for 20 years
<Zakim> fantasai, you wanted to note that we have a lot of
hand-coded pages and that's likely to continue
fantasai: we do have a lot of hand-coded pages on the site
… they need to continue to work
<Ralph> [in Vivien's response to Richard's question I heard
something else that would be nice to clarify internally. In our
current environment any Team member is able to post a trivially
bare HTML file on w3.org, and then it can be styled later. The
threshold to First Publish is very low. If the CMS requires
more knowledge before First Publish, that raises the threshold]
fantasai: we'll continue to add hand-coded pages
… that's how we experiment and show off
… whatever we're building will need to accommodate that
… Bootstrap has a lot of classes
… apollo has much fewer things
… will only include things that we need
<Ralph> [ah! Fantasai's "hand coded pages" comment is a variant
of my concern]
fantasai: I second what Léonie said
<jeff> [Correct, Ralph, and it's not just the Team.]
New changes in the future
Nicki: Apollo is a starting point
… we keep it under review
… from a client support point of view too
… we handle that on a case by case basis
… in which case we may decide to roll back into apollo if it
fills a gap that's been identified
<gerald> [/me would expect the team would continue to be able
to create arbitrary html/css/etc files]
Testing
Sam: how easy will features be ready to roll out, e.g.
webauthn?
Simon: I read the question
… I don't think it makes a difference what framework we use
… it's more of a programming thing
… e.g. symfony or CMS
… apollo or bootstrap would not prevent you from doing this
Coralie: that's Vivien's topic as Apollo v2 is really new and
we would be the first ones to use it, meaning it has not
received a lot of testing yet, which ultimately means there
will be bugs as for any new project being release
Vivien: V2 is just going out
Vivien: concerned a bit that we're going to be a guinea pig for
apollo v2
… from systeam's point of view this is something we try to
avoid
… ability to handle bug reports?
… during and after the project
Simon: the current v2 that Nicki is working on is based on v1
available the last 4 years
… like any project we'll be testing as we build
… thoroughly
Richard: I get a little nervous when people say "we're going to
do a11y testing" and don't mention i18n"
Simon: We'll have to look at that, it's a very good point
<Zakim> fantasai, you wanted to contrast with hand-coded CSS
fantasai: on the i18n side, probably it's going to be easier
… w3c's website currently uses content negotation
… the CMS will have to take this into account
… apache's approach is sophisticated, most CMSes can't do that
… from the css framework perspective I'm less concerned
… while we're considering the testing question
… if Studio 24 had offered to hand-code everything
… that would be like a similar thing to consider
… we would also be able to changes things
… the code behind apollo is not particularly complicated
… some of the leg work is done for common patterns and that's
what apollo brings
… you could argue testing bootstrap @@ vs hand-coded website
… apollo is closer to that
Simon: true
Doc and community
Vivien: Simon gave answers in that regard already
… but comparing with Bootstrap, where there's a huge community
… you can find issues and fixes
… with apollo, we saw the doc but no existing client issues,
for example
Vivien: are you expecing your clients to use GH as a platform
for issues / feedback?
Simon: it's not really a community project the same way
bootstrap is
… so far we've not had clients put issues to GH
… they use our support system
… that could change in the future
… so far GH is our code repository
Vivien: One comment Denis made in the systeam call yesterday
… w3c using apollo may increase the exposure on apollo
Simon: of course we hope to increase exposure but not
particularly on apollo
<fantasai> Wrt maintenance, I hope vivien and others have read
[14]https://superfriendlydesign.systems/articles/
should-you-use-bootstrap-or-material-design-for-your-design-sys
tem/
[14] https://superfriendlydesign.systems/articles/should-you-use-bootstrap-or-material-design-for-your-design-system/
Simon: since we don't deploy it for others necessarily to use,
but it's our tool
<fantasai> which was linked from the Studio24 doc
Maintenance
[Maintenance: What kind of maintenance can we expect after the
final version of the website is released and more generally on
the long term (to handle issues reported by our users or to use
on other pages)]
Simon: that depends on our contract with the client
… we have support contracts with some clients
… if we add things to apollo that you want to use, we'll be
happy to let you know and advise you
Licensing
Simon: any work we do is transferred to the clients
… apollo is open source
… built to be reused
<wseltzer> [sounds good to me]
<wseltzer> [feel free to ask me if you have license questions]
Deadline
Vivien: if we were to use a framework different from apollo
… S24 mentioned they'd need more time
… and that might incur delays
… what would be the impact from your pov?
[Richard departs]
Simon: apollo having pre-built things, there would be overhead
… we would deprioritize other work
<Ralph> Coralie: our timeline says we need to make a decision
mid-June
<Ralph> ... can we get back to you next week?
<Ralph> Simon: yes
Bert: I see the apollo is written in sass
… that would be a new tech for us to use
… would we have to use sass
Simon: you don't have to
… we'd discuss that
… there are other ways
<Ralph> [15]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Sass_(stylesheet_language)
[15] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sass_(stylesheet_language)
<simonrjones> thanks for everyone's time and comments, a very
useful call.
Simon: we'll take your lead
<Ralph>
<Ralph> Sass is a preprocessor scripting language that is
interpreted or compiled into Cascading Style Sheets (CSS).
<Ralph> ]]
fantasai: someone said that we want our stylesheets need to be
readable and an example
… I concur
… using bootstrap would [mot do that]
… we should turn off css minimization
… view source
Simon: we agree
<Ralph> big +1 to making it trivially easy to 'view source'
<caribou> [using something like bootstrap might send the wrong
idea that simple css is not manageable]
<koalie> I concur with caribou's statement
<koalie> and generally with what fantasai said (and Bert, and
others)
Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by
[16]scribe.perl version 121 (Mon Jun 8 14:50:45 2020 UTC).
[16] https://w3c.github.io/scribe2/scribedoc.html
--
Coralie Mercier - W3C Marketing & Communications - https://www.w3.org
mailto:coralie@w3.org +337 810 795 22 https://www.w3.org/People/Coralie/
Received on Monday, 15 June 2020 19:44:23 UTC