[minutes] February 18 meeting

Hi,

The minutes of the WebRTC WG meeting held on February 18 are available at:
   https://www.w3.org/2025/02/18-webrtc-minutes.html (with video recording)

Thanks Guido for taking notes!

Dom

                       WebRTC February 2025 meeting

    [2]Agenda.

       [2] https://www.w3.org/2011/04/webrtc/wiki/February_18_2025

Attendees

    Present
           Elad, Guido, Harald, Jan-Ivar, Philipp_Hancke

    Regrets
           Dom, Youenn

    Chair
           Guido, Jan-Ivar

    Scribe
           Guido

Contents

     1. [3]Media Capture and Streams
          1. [4]Issue #1020 What is the order of events being track
             clones?
          2. [5]Issue #1028 Revisit and document getUserMedia()
             track order
          3. [6]Issue #1027 How to interact with a device without a
             fixed capability?
     2. [7]Webrtc Stats
          1. [8]Issue #789 Do not expose unknown usernameFragment
             to stats.
          2. [9]#794 Add PSNR
     3. [10]Captured Surface Control
          1. [11]Jan-Ivar's vision
          2. [12]Elad's vision
          3. [13]Discussion
     4. [14]Summary of resolutions

Meeting minutes

    Recording: [15]https://youtu.be/vxKH7pYWczE

      [15] https://youtu.be/vxKH7pYWczE

    IFRAME:
    [16]https://www.youtube.com/embed/vxKH7pYWczE?enablejsapi=1&rel
    =0&modestbranding=1

      [16] 
https://www.youtube.com/embed/vxKH7pYWczE?enablejsapi=1&rel=0&modestbranding=1

    Slideset: [17]https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/
    1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/ ([18]archived PDF
    copy)

      [17] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/

   [19]Media Capture and Streams

      [19] https://github.com/w3c/mediacapture-main/

     Issue [20]#1020 What is the order of events being track clones?

      [20] https://github.com/w3c/mediacapture-main/issues/1020

    [21][Slide 12]

      [21] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/#12

    <scribe> Proposed: force deterministic per thread.

    <scribe> Harald: Verify that this is compatible with existing
    applications.

    RESOLUTION: Prepare PR and WPT to ensure existing behavior
    matches proposal.

     Issue [22]#1028 Revisit and document getUserMedia() track order

      [22] https://github.com/w3c/mediacapture-main/issues/1028

    [23][Slide 13]

      [23] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/#13

    [24][Slide 14]

      [24] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/#14

    <scribe> Proposed: Specify order of tracks returned by
    MST.getTracks() to conform with modern Infra which recommends
    ordered sets to match Firefox behavior.

    <scribe> Harald: Internally Chrome treats audio and video
    tracks separately for historical reasons, and I propose to keep
    it like that.

    <scribe> Philipp_Hancke: A problem is that addTrack/getTracks
    are used together. Propose to do what Chrome does.

    <scribe> Guido: Oppose this proposal since it is incompatible
    with existing implementations. Chrome

    <scribe> Philipp_Hancke: Developers can be confused by it. Is
    it a practical problem?

    RESOLUTION: No resolution. Try to get feedback from Safari.

     Issue [25]#1027 How to interact with a device without a fixed
     capability?

      [25] https://github.com/w3c/mediacapture-main/issues/1027

    [26][Slide 15]

      [26] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/#15

    <scribe> Proposal: Remove the sentence that says capabilities
    are effectively constant.

    <scribe> Guido: Support.

    <scribe> Harald: Support.

    RESOLUTION: Prepare PR.

   [27]Webrtc Stats

      [27] https://github.com/w3c/webrtc-stats/

     Issue [28]#789 Do not expose unknown usernameFragment to stats.

      [28] https://github.com/w3c/webrtc-stats/issues/789

    [29][Slide 16]

      [29] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/#16

    <scribe> Proposal: Merge PR [30]#795

      [30] https://github.com/w3c/webrtc-stats/issues/795

    <scribe> Jan-Ivar: Support

    <scribe> Harald: Should prevent people from reading these
    fragments. No idea how to resolve the web compat issue
    [31]#601. In general, support the issue.

      [31] https://github.com/w3c/webrtc-stats/issues/601

    RESOLUTION: Support, review the PR again.

     [32]#794 Add PSNR

      [32] https://github.com/w3c/webrtc-stats/issues/794

    [33][Slide 17]

      [33] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/#17

    <scribe> Expose peak signal-to-noise ratio

    <scribe> Implemented at Meta. Great results, but costly to
    compute per frame.

    <scribe> Jan-Ivar: I don't see any problem, but need to check
    internally at Firefox.

    <scribe> Harald: PSNR doesn't necessarily match human
    perception of quality. Big changes in PSNR correlate with big
    changes in quality. Small changes do not.

   [34]Captured Surface Control

      [34] https://github.com/w3c/mediacapture-surface-control/

     Jan-Ivar's vision

    [35][Slide 20]

      [35] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/#20

    [36][Slide 21]

      [36] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/#21

    <scribe> Issue [37]#69

      [37] https://github.com/w3c/mediacapture-surface-control/issues/69

    [38][Slide 22]

      [38] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/#22

    <scribe> Issue [39]#67

      [39] https://github.com/w3c/mediacapture-surface-control/issues/67

    [40][Slide 23]

      [40] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/#23

    <scribe> Issue [41]#45

      [41] https://github.com/w3c/mediacapture-surface-control/issues/45

    [42][Slide 24]

      [42] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/#24

    [43][Slide 25]

      [43] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/#25

    [44][Slide 26]

      [44] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/#26

    [45][Slide 27]

      [45] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/#27

    [46][Slide 28]

      [46] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/#28

    [47][Slide 29]

      [47] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/#29

    [48][Slide 30]

      [48] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/#30

    [49][Slide 31]

      [49] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/#31

     Elad's vision

    [50][Slide 33]

      [50] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/#33

    [51][Slide 34]

      [51] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/#34

    [52][Slide 35]

      [52] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/#35

    [53][Slide 36]

      [53] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/#36

    [54][Slide 37]

      [54] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/#37

    [55][Slide 38]

      [55] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/#38

    [56][Slide 39]

      [56] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/#39

    <scribe> Issue [57]#45

      [57] https://github.com/w3c/mediacapture-surface-control/issues/45

    [58][Slide 41]

      [58] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/#41

    <scribe> Issue [59]#67

      [59] https://github.com/w3c/mediacapture-surface-control/issues/67

    [60][Slide 42]

      [60] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/#42

    <scribe> Issue [61]#69

      [61] https://github.com/w3c/mediacapture-surface-control/issues/69

    [62][Slide 43]

      [62] 
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XHPL-hiWXlra2bWDJHHkZmSGrx3Y97xGcEv43mnwIpU/#43

     Discussion

    <scribe> Jan-Ivar: The existing APi is too powerful.

    <scribe> ... Requires the app to construct the illusion.

    <scribe> ... I don't think it's accurate to say the user
    interacts with the captured tab, but with a preview.

    <scribe> ... I prefer the Web developer to interact with the
    preview element.

    <scribe> ... The UA does calculations based on something the
    app can change.

    <scribe> ... Doesn't work with touch events.

    <scribe> [Disagreement about what the user is interacting with]

    <scribe> Jan-Ivar: interacting with a representation of the
    captured tab.

    <scribe> Elad: Interacting with the tab. Limited to one
    preview: straightforward extension in the future.

    <scribe> Jan-Ivar: Overlay: they're a problem in general, not
    just for this API.

    <scribe> Jan-Ivar: Let's discuss behaviors. Do we agree on
    behaviors?

    <scribe> Harald: I find the controller more natural.
    Implementation-wise the

    <scribe> Elad: Both API surfaces are equally powerful or
    powerless since they can implement the same limitations.

    RESOLUTION: Continue the debate on github to nail down the
    behavior. No input outside Jan-Ivar and Google in the meeting.

Summary of resolutions

     1. [63]Prepare PR and WPT to ensure existing behavior matches
        proposal.
     2. [64]No resolution. Try to get feedback from Safari.
     3. [65]Prepare PR.
     4. [66]Support, review the PR again.
     5. [67]Continue the debate on github to nail down the
        behavior. No input outside Jan-Ivar and Google in the
        meeting.

Received on Wednesday, 26 February 2025 09:32:19 UTC