Re: instant web payments via the lightning network

Have you looked at: https://interledger.org/rfcs/0028-web-monetization/

On Thu, 28 Mar 2019 at 22:48, William O'Beirne <wbobeirne@gmail.com> wrote:

> Well consider yourself lucky Andrew, because it's written in TypeScript!
>
> I'm looking forward to integrating with whatever shakes out of the W3C
> payments standard, but I still think even with it, WebLN has a place in
> applications. I spoke to this a bit in an issue Rene had posted on the
> repo[1] but I'll reiterate a bit here.
>
> 1. Web payments are structured around more traditional large one-time
> payments for things like physical goods. One of the things I like so much
> about Lightning is the idea of more passive, thoughtless micro payments. I
> don't think that the standard or client implementations will make that a
> first class use case.
> 2. The spec considers creating new payment methods "out of scope"[2],
> which says to me that it'll be a long while before chrome extensions (e.g.
> Joule) can add a payment method to the browser. So it'll be at the whims of
> the browser vendors to implement Lightning (which I find unlikely), or
> someone will need to fork a browser that has it built in.
> 3. Lightning has more going for it than just payments. Invoices to receive
> payments and proof of identity (by providing an invoice or a signed
> message) are interesting tools that come with running a node that I think
> can make for interesting user experiences. I don't see anything like that
> making it into a W3C spec any time soon.
>
> All that said, I'm looking to build on top of these standards, and not
> consider WebLN a full-on replacement for these. I plan on making Joule work
> with W3C payments when they provide a way for me to add a payment method,
> and I'm looking into some ways of using 402 response codes to indicate
> gated content.
>
> [1] https://github.com/wbobeirne/webln/issues/1
> [2] https://w3c.github.io/payment-request/#goals
>
> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 4:32 AM Andrew Bransford Brown <andrewbb@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I do not trust anything written in JavaScript.
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 2:23 PM Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> This new work looks promising
>>>
>>> https://github.com/wbobeirne/webln
>>>
>>> cc wboberine -- tl;dr some of us are hoping to try and get some
>>> standardization work going in the w3c payments group around the lightning
>>> network -- any interest?
>>>
>>> On Mon, 4 Mar 2019 at 11:52, Andrew Bransford Brown <andrewbb@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Good idea.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 3:16 PM Melvin Carvalho <
>>>> melvincarvalho@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 19 Jan 2019 at 18:44, Melvin Carvalho <
>>>>> melvincarvalho@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 19 Jan 2019 at 18:30, Melvin Carvalho <
>>>>>> melvincarvalho@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 at 18:24, Michael Bumann <
>>>>>>> hello@michaelbumann.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
>>>>>>>> On Monday, January 14, 2019 11:50 AM, Melvin Carvalho <
>>>>>>>> melvincarvalho@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 at 11:30, Michael Bumann <
>>>>>>>> hello@michaelbumann.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Melvin,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> yeah, I've been experimenting with the Bitcoin lightning network
>>>>>>>>> for a while and I am pretty excited about the state and how easy it is to
>>>>>>>>> build on top of it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi, Great!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Funnily enough I was just reading your page, and realized it was
>>>>>>>> you :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tim did actually a while back ask me to interact with this group
>>>>>>>> regarding http 402.  Some work has been done on that, including by me, and
>>>>>>>> it would be great to compare notes at some point.  Or maybe flesh out use
>>>>>>>> cases.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I got a bit lost in the different efforts around this topic. And
>>>>>>>> some seemed to me rather complicated (e.g. including standards for
>>>>>>>> providing invoice/shipping details)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd love to see and online equivalent of handing a coin to the
>>>>>>>> newspaper person and getting some content in return.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Did you see/use lightning browser extension "joule"[1]?  It brings
>>>>>>>>> lightning payments to the browser - and there has been some discussion
>>>>>>>>> around supporting web payment standards - maybe somebody familiar can help?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have it installed, but dont fully understand the fine details.
>>>>>>>> When my casa node arrives I'll be able to try it out with my own node.  But
>>>>>>>> I might set up a raspblitz while I wait.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let me know if you want to set it up on a server. I am happy to
>>>>>>>> help,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was lead to your blog post from :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://github.com/wbobeirne/joule-extension/issues/46
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am wondering how to make it easier for content providers to
>>>>>>>>> integrate LN payments and also experimented with lightning payments for API
>>>>>>>>> requests [2].
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have written in the past working code for pay walls, with a dance
>>>>>>>> around http 402, and in fact that's my current use case.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you think some areas of this work flow would benefit from
>>>>>>>> standardization?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> as mentioned above I am not super aware of the current
>>>>>>>> standardization efforts and I ignored it because of simplicity with my
>>>>>>>> experiments.
>>>>>>>> I think also joule ignored it for that reason.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But yeah this must use some standard. Does anyone know how this
>>>>>>>> could fit into the current efforts?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How about this simple pay wall user story for proof of concept?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> User Story
>>>>>>> <#m_9009614641718293557_m_4118734686060785173_m_3731727939658195170_m_6562303847656748069_m_1728713327420995450_m_-5517546107507471064_m_8143054714546802283_user-story>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As a teacher, Alice wishes to make her educational notes available
>>>>>>> to fellow teachers. Having put a great deal of effort into it, she would
>>>>>>> wish to get access to different notes from other teachers in return, or put
>>>>>>> up a pay wall for new teachers that have not yet prepared notes. Alice will
>>>>>>> set the price of access, and a license indicating it is not to be shared
>>>>>>> further. Bob, having obtained some credits on Alice's system purchases the
>>>>>>> notes, and starts working on his own presentations, which he would like to
>>>>>>> share in a similar way
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Process
>>>>>>> <#m_9009614641718293557_m_4118734686060785173_m_3731727939658195170_m_6562303847656748069_m_1728713327420995450_m_-5517546107507471064_m_8143054714546802283_process>
>>>>>>> Bob's attempts to access the URI, and receives a response, HTTP 402
>>>>>>> - Payment Required.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also returned is a lightning network invoice in an HTTP header.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bob pays the invoice, then Alice allows access to the article
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Request
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HTTP GET paywall.org/article.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Response
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HTP 402
>>>>>> X-Lightning-Invoice : ln74894yiy...
>>>>>> Updates-Via : wss://paywall.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe another header for the type of paywall?  ie lightning mainnet.
>>>>>> The updates-via can be used to tell the user agent that the page is ready
>>>>>> to refresh.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Someone (aka basti) pointed me to the following doc saying X- headers
>>>>> are no longer a best practice
>>>>>
>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6648
>>>>>
>>>>> So perhaps we can standardize around the ln- prefix for example
>>>>>
>>>>> ln-invoice
>>>>> ln-grpc
>>>>> ln-foo
>>>>> ln-bar
>>>>>
>>>>> etc. ?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> With solid it's possible to access control content, and give back a
>>>>>>>> 4xx.  We dont yet return 402s but I've custom hacked a server to do that.
>>>>>>>> I'm not quite sure how a server will be able to know to send a 402.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [1]https://lightningjoule.com/
>>>>>>>>> [2]
>>>>>>>>> http://michaelbumann.com/post/180389589277/bitcoin-lightning-machine-to-machine-api-payments
>>>>>>>>> [2] https://github.com/bumi/ln-markdown-to-pdf
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 12, 2019 6:04 PM, Melvin Carvalho <
>>>>>>>>> melvincarvalho@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> > I am curious if any of this group is interested in the lightning
>>>>>>>>> network [1].
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > For those that are unaware, it is a system built on top of block
>>>>>>>>> chains that allow zero cost instant payments in a zero trust environment.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > There has been lots of innovation already this year, and it
>>>>>>>>> seems to be growing fast.  One service that impressed me is a custodial
>>>>>>>>> service built on top of twitter that allows you to add a tip jar based on
>>>>>>>>> your twitter account.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > https://tippin..me/ <https://tippin.me/>
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > This is a really easy way for non technical people to experience
>>>>>>>>> web payments and bitcoin in the browser, without the overhead of a high
>>>>>>>>> technical barrier to entry, or downloading a wallet.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > Additionally I have added this to my sollid profile using the
>>>>>>>>> the foaf : tipjar predicate that has been around for about a decade but
>>>>>>>>> never really used.  The I have added it looks as follows :
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > In turtle :
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > </#me> <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/tipjar> <
>>>>>>>>> https://tippin.me/@melvincarvalho> .
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > In RDFa :
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > <a target="_blank" rel="http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/tipjar" href="
>>>>>>>>> https://tippin.me/@melvincarvalho">
>>>>>>>>> https://tippin.me/@melvincarvalho</a>
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > There are also new solutions such as a mobile wallet that
>>>>>>>>> receives payments (blue wallet), decentralized apps (Lapps) and ability to
>>>>>>>>> run your own node eg on a raspberry pi.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > If anyone is playing around in this space would love to hear
>>>>>>>>> from you, or if you'd like to get started and have, say a tippin me
>>>>>>>>> account, I'd be happy to send some satoshis (the unit of currency) to play
>>>>>>>>> around with.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > I think this brings forth an exciting new era of instant
>>>>>>>>> payments in the browser.  Would love to hear from anyone else that is
>>>>>>>>> interested in this tech.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > [1] http://lightning.network
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>