W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-webpayments@w3.org > May 2015

Re: The Payments Architecture within which a Web Payments Architecture occurs

From: Joseph Potvin <jpotvin@opman.ca>
Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 00:51:57 -0400
Message-ID: <CAKcXiSqs=qpZ2KmDsNtyRiky9r7rROunKwYrSV++rnNAk6HbtA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>
Cc: Web Payments CG <public-webpayments@w3.org>
So, it's been a busy thead. Hope it's both interesting and useful.

Some respectful challenges to Manu's comments:

RE: "Regulations and formal law are reactionary beasts."

Litigation, generally yes. But there are indeed lawyers whose writing of
civil code is similar in context to writing source code. Your
under-estimate the realm of law.

RE: "To be clear, the WPIG in no way, shape, or form is going to do
something that willfully violates known regulations"

But what of the obligation to make sure the WPIG is effectively
knowledgable of the underlying global-level foundations of the relevant
laws and regulations?  For example, has the WPIG assessed its work in
relation to the UNICTRAL Model Law on e-Commerce?
http://www.uncitral.org/pdf/english/texts/electcom/05-89450_Ebook.pdf  (BTW
-- that comes from 1996. I think you'll argree that it was rather
forward-thinking for its time, if we set aside the assumption or bias that
IF it's a UN org, THEN it must be slow and bureaucratic.)  The current work
of that part of UNCITRAL is found here:
http://www.uncitral.org/uncitral/en/commission/working_groups/4Electronic_Commerce.html

RE: "Theoretical architectural concerns, legal theory, and regulatory
theory rarely enter the discussion unless it's clear that not thinking
about them is going to create a deployment problem."

Manu, that's like saying to a bridge engineer: "Theoretical mathematics
concerns, physics theory, and systems theory rarely enter the discussion
unless it's clear that not thinking about them is going to create a
deployment problem." Uhh, ya well, good luck. It will only be clear that
not thinking about them is a problem, AFTER its too late. As my carpenter
says: "Measure twice, cut once."

RE: "We should be very careful about suggesting that we put something in
the critical path, like waiting on changes in UNCITRAL or ITU, to make
progress.

As mentioned, AFAICT everything being sought under the W3C WP IG is nicely
accommodated the complementary standards, so this FUD about "waiting on
changes" is a red herring.

RE:  If the creation of the Web took that path

Um, actually, it did as you well know. It's called the W3C.

Time to go for a beer!  :-)

Joseph


On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 12:04 AM, Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>
wrote:

> On 05/14/2015 11:23 PM, Melvin Carvalho wrote:
> > Code tends to leads laws in this area, and likely regulations will
> > evolve in line with the value propositions
>
> This. Code is law[1]. Regulations and formal law are reactionary beasts.
>
> To be clear, the WPIG in no way, shape, or form is going to do something
> that willfully violates known regulations. In fact, there has been a
> steady drum-beat of making sure that the Web Payments Architecture can
> automate a great deal of the regulatory activity in order to make
> writing code for payments less risky for all parties involved
> (developers included).
>
> In general, W3C Working Groups care about solving real problems, real
> interoperability, technical excellence, and serving the needs of
> everyone that uses the Web. Theoretical architectural concerns, legal
> theory, and regulatory theory rarely enter the discussion unless it's
> clear that not thinking about them is going to We should be very careful
> about suggesting that we put something in the
> critical path, like waiting on changes in UNCITRAL or ITU, to make
> progress. If the creation of the Web took that path, none of us would be
> having the conversation we're having today.create a deployment problem.
>
> Deployments and uptake matter. The laws and regulations sort themselves
> out over time. This group, in particular, has gone to great lengths to
> broadcast what we're doing in places like the UN Internet Governance
> Forum. We have lawyers involved in the work we're doing now, so
> it's not like we're flying blind.
>
> We should be very careful about suggesting that we put something in the
> critical path, like waiting on changes in UNCITRAL or ITU, to make
> progress. If the creation of the Web took that path, none of us would be
> having the conversation we're having today.
>
> -- manu
>
> [1] http://harvardmagazine.com/2000/01/code-is-law-html
>
> --
> Manu Sporny (skype: msporny, twitter: manusporny, G+: +Manu Sporny)
> Founder/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc.
> blog: The Marathonic Dawn of Web Payments
> http://manu.sporny.org/2014/dawn-of-web-payments/
>
>


-- 
Joseph Potvin
Operations Manager | Gestionnaire des opérations
The Opman Company | La compagnie Opman
jpotvin@opman.ca
Mobile: 819-593-5983
Received on Friday, 15 May 2015 04:52:53 UTC

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