W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-webpayments@w3.org > June 2014

Re: Proof of Concept: Identity Credentials Login

From: Joseph Potvin <jpotvin@opman.ca>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 10:50:04 -0400
Message-ID: <CAKcXiSpz_nZwh3hyPtT-giywdijv0DGM39zYZkzwtBKg_RSW=Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: Web Payments CG <public-webpayments@w3.org>
RE: "Being on Github doesn't make something an open standard.
Basically, Open Source != Open Standard. "

+1

(And a tangential FWIW: Github.com's own adaptations of Git,
implemented on the Github service, are not shared free/libre/open on
Github.)

Joseph





On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 10:29 AM, Kingsley Idehen
<kidehen@openlinksw.com> wrote:
> On 6/10/14 9:52 AM, Tim Holborn wrote:
>
> I agree about decentralisation, etc.
>
> see: https://github.com/digitalbazaar/opencred-idp and (or so it appears)
> https://github.com/digitalbazaar/opencred-verifier
>
> I think the fact the solution is available on Github, significantly
> influences the rational surrounding whether or not it’s starting out to be a
> workable solution…
>
>
> Being on Github doesn't make something an open standard. Basically, Open
> Source != Open Standard.
>
>
> (does you.id have a github repo?)
>
>
> YouID [1] is a utility for generating:
>
> 1. Identifiers -- WebIDs
> 2. Public and Private keys
> 3. Public and Private Identity Cards -- the private part is an X.509 cert
> and the public part is stored at a location of your choosing
> 4. Identity Card Content in a variety of formats -- TURTLE, JSON-LD,
> HTML+RDFa, HTML+Microdata .
>
> 1-4 can be done by hand using any collection of tool e.g., those that
> bundled with all modern operating systems (desktop to mobile). All YouID
> does is save you time while negating the distracting politics around RDF
> document content formats etc.. Basically, we are using our knowledge of this
> subject matter to produce a solution for end-users and developers alike.
>
> To answer your question, YouID isn't open source, its available on iOS or
> Android.
>
> I don't see YouID being mutually exclusive with anything i.e., saving time
> (re., public and private identity claims docs generation) is compatible with
> any collection of standards that loosely couple: identity, identifiers,
> identification, authentication, and authorization :-)
>
> Links:
>
> [1] http://youid.openlinksw.com
> [2] http://bit.ly/1tkOWv1 -- Blog post that walks you through what YouID is
> about.
>
>
> Kingsley
>
>
>
>
> And: http://manu.sporny.org/2014/identity-credentials/ notes the need to
> complete the decentralisation of the method.
>
> And i absolutely agree that it needs to be RWW compatible (rww.io / data.fm
> are json-ld compliant).  How it deal with the URI For an x509v3 cert
> (subjectAltName) is another function of what’s already outlined
> https://credential.club/ - however applied to a machine (resulting in one
> TLS Cert per Machine Account for desktop devices; perhaps only one on mobile
> devices… or perhaps one for each persona/agent? i’d prefer one per machine…)
>
> Similarly; the ability to create an AUTH link - which relates back to a post
> authored earlier today…
>
> Along those lines; another form of ‘credential’ might be taking a pic with a
> phone of a QR Code shown on a desktop interface, then tracking the two
> device ID’s, etc.  eg: using something like;
> http://davidshimjs.github.io/qrcodejs/
>
> or - is that not a credential?
>
> anyhow. really stoked.  I think it’s a great start to a POC; infinitely
> capable of being applied to the roles required surrounding WebID’s roles
> with RWW / LDP - in addition to linking to institutional credential
> providers (KYC, etc.); providing 'anon persona’,  creating auth sequence
> that can then support the use of FOAF (where appropriate) for things like
> social-web; all sorts of options: when earlier - i was entirely frustrated
> by the somewhat opaque terminology of ‘agent’.
>
> This way; i’m not just me; but i’m me, as defined by my license, my passport
> - and last time i checked a company doesn’t have a passport or a drivers
> license ;)
>
> nite...
>
>
> On 10 Jun 2014, at 11:35 pm, Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com> wrote:
>
> On 6/10/14 8:05 AM, Tim Holborn wrote:
>
> I wouldn’t worry about it too much.  I assume you’ve tested the demo?
>
>
> When I am presented with a dialog asking me to abdicate control of my
> identity via a 3rd party hosted identity card service and verification
> provider, I balk.
>
>
> Looks like a great URI Structure.
>
>
> What is a great URI structure? URIs denote things. HTTP URIs denote things
> in ways that unveil what they connote e.g., via the HTML rendered in the
> users browser.
>
>
> My fundamental point is this:
>
> 1. mutual inclusion is good
> 2. using open standards (actual or de facto)  is good
> 3. decentralization is non negotiable -- nobody should be forced to abdicate
> self-hosting of identity credentials to a 3rd party (G+, Dropbox, OneDrive
> etc.. are options on the table for storage too, alongside other Read-Write
> HTTP servers).
>
> A solution that embraces the above, at its core, will be adopted at
> Web-scale. Alternatives will fail. Of that, I am 100% certain.
>
>
> Kingsley
>
>
> Timh.
> On 10 Jun 2014, at 10:00 pm, Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com> wrote:
>
> On 6/10/14 12:25 AM, Manu Sporny wrote:
>
> TL;DR: There is now an open source demo of credential-based login
> for the Web. We think it’s better than Persona, WebID+TLS, and
> OpenID Connect. If we can build enough support for Identity
> Credentials over the next year, we’d like to standardize it via
> the W3C.
>
> This is a text-only version of the original blog post, which can be found
> here:
>
> http://manu.sporny.org/2014/identity-credentials/
>
> Identity Credentials and Web Login
>
>   In a [1]previous blog post, I outlined the need for a better login
>   solution for the Web and why Mozilla Persona, WebID+TLS, and
>   OpenID Connect currently don’t address important use cases that
>   we’re considering in the Web Payments Community Group. The blog
>   post contained a proposal for a new login mechanism for the Web
>   that was simultaneously more decentralized, more extensible,
>   enabled a level playing field, and was more privacy-aware than the
>   previously mentioned solutions.
>
> Manu,
>
> I've provided a comment on your blog post. At the same time, my history with
> Wordpress blogs is that comments are 100% guaranteed to make it to the
> public, for a variety of reasons. Anyway, since I want to express my
> opinions on this matter in public, here's a copy of what I pasted to your
> blog, in regards to your assertions about WebID-TLS:
>
> The World Wide Web is inherently architected to accommodate multiple ways of
> providing services driven by Linked Open Data (i.e., open standards based
> structured data) and HTTP URIs. I don't believe in OpenID vs Persona vs
> WebID-TLS vs OAuth etc. These authentication protocols can co-exist.
>
> In regards to WebID-TLS, you make the following assertion that I disagree
> with:
> WebID+TLS also depends on the use of client-side certificates that are
> managed by the browser, which are difficult to use for most
> non-technologists.
>
> Issues with your assertions:
>
> [1] They are too generic -- dependency of Client Certification
> Authentication (CCA) isn't a bad thing bearing in mind only a minority of
> Browser (circa. 2104) have this problem.
>
> [2] Too subjective -- "difficult to use for most non-technologists" isn't a
> defensible position.
>
> The Client Certificate Authentication (CCA) Problem Status:
>
> As of the time of writing this reply, the only browsers with this problem
> i.e, an inability to disconnect and start new TLS sessions are as follows:
> Chrome and Opera. The aforementioned problem is no longer an issue across
> Firefox, Safari, and IE.  I can prove this with a simple WebID-TLS
> authentication service [1].
>
> I don't see how Opera and Chrome can continue to be deficient re. CCA
> bearing in mind the current state of implementations from IE, Safari, and
> Firefox. Thus, I wouldn't count on a fixable problem on the part of browser
> vendors as the basis for undermining a truly open solution for Identity
> Claims authentication such as WebID-TLS.
>
> End-users do not need programmers thinking or speaking for them. That's
> broken. What end-users need is the ability to control their identity and
> privacy online via solutions that leverage Web & Internet architecture such
> that the following are loosely coupled (no 3rd party .com, .org, .cc etc..
> in the way):
>
> 1. Identity - perceived entity (actually nebulous since none of us can
> accurately claim full perception of the aspects of any entity)
>
> 2. Identifiers - HTTP URIs that denote Agents (no different to the role of a
> Passport Number, SSN, Credit Card Number etc..)
>
> 3. Identity Claims Documents -- Identity Cards or Profile Documents or
> Certificate (basically what your Passport, Driver's License, Credit Card,
> Club Membership Card etc.. provide)
>
> 4. Identity Claims Authentication Protocols -- variety of protocols that
> verify claims made in Identity Claims Documents
>
> 5. Protected Resource Access Authorization -- how verified Identities are
> tested against ACLs (Access Control Lists) or Data Access Policies (this may
> be Role Based [RBAC] or Attributed Based [ABAC]).
>
> Links:
>
> [1] http://id.myopenlink.net/ods/webid_demo.html -- WebID-TLS demo that
> proves TLS session login and logout can occur without restarting Safari
> (this is based on a timeout), Firefox (this uses crypto.logout), and IE
> (this uses the "new session" feature under the standard menu)
>
> [2] http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/SNS/rbac/ -- Role Based Access Control
> (RBAC)
>
> [3] http://csrc.nist.gov/projects/abac/ -- Attribute Based Access Control
> (ABAC).
>
> --
>
> Regards,
>
> Kingsley Idehen
> Founder & CEO
> OpenLink Software
> Company Web: http://www.openlinksw.com
> Personal Weblog: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen
> Twitter Profile: https://twitter.com/kidehen
> Google+ Profile: https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about
> LinkedIn Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Regards,
>
> Kingsley Idehen
> Founder & CEO
> OpenLink Software
> Company Web: http://www.openlinksw.com
> Personal Weblog: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen
> Twitter Profile: https://twitter.com/kidehen
> Google+ Profile: https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about
> LinkedIn Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Regards,
>
> Kingsley Idehen
> Founder & CEO
> OpenLink Software
> Company Web: http://www.openlinksw.com
> Personal Weblog: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen
> Twitter Profile: https://twitter.com/kidehen
> Google+ Profile: https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about
> LinkedIn Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen
>
>
>
>



-- 
Joseph Potvin
Operations Manager | Gestionnaire des opérations
The Opman Company | La compagnie Opman
jpotvin@opman.ca
Mobile: 819-593-5983
Received on Tuesday, 10 June 2014 14:50:55 UTC

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