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Web Payments Telecon Minutes for 2013-09-11

From: Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 17:19:27 -0400
Message-ID: <5230DE5F.2000709@digitalbazaar.com>
To: Web Payments <public-webpayments@w3.org>
Thanks to Travis Choma for scribing today! The minutes for this
week's Web Payments telecon are now available here:

https://payswarm.com/minutes/2013-09-11/

Full text of the discussion follows for archival purposes at the W3C.
Audio of the meeting is available as well (link provided below).

--------------
Web Payments Community Group Telecon Minutes for 2013-09-11

Agenda:
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webpayments/2013Sep/0031.html
Topics:
   1. Introduction of New Members
   2. Internet Governance Forum
   3. Web Payment Conference Schedule
   4. Update on Web Payments Summer of Code Progress
   5. Simplifying the Web Commerce API
Chair:
   Manu Sporny
Scribe:
   Travis Choma
Present:
   Travis Choma, Erik Anderson, Evan Schwartz, Manu Sporny,
   Pindar Wong, Andrei Oprea, David I. Lehn, Dave Longley,
   Kumar McMillan
Audio:
   http://payswarm.com/minutes/2013-09-11/audio.ogg

Travis Choma is scribing.

Topic: Introduction of New Members

Erik Anderson:  Here from Bloomberg LP
   http://www.bloomberg.com/company/ . I've been involved in tech
   for 25 years, lots of engineering work, gov, nasa, startups, 7
   years at bloomberg,
Erik Anderson:  finance is taking a different turn over the next
   decade
Erik Anderson:  interested in micropayments, and new technologies
   in finance, driving governments as well.
Erik Anderson:  here to listen in and contribute
Evan Schwartz:  From Ripple - http://ripple.com , listening in,
   have very similar goals
Evan Schwartz:  web payments as an arch of the internet, and easy
   to send money, ripple is a decentralized payment network in any
   currency
Evan Schwartz:  immediately with no fees
Evan Schwartz:  ripple does have a digital currency, emphasis is
   on the payment network, not the currency. The xrp ripple currency
   is meant as a bridge.
Evan Schwartz:  facilitates exchanges between unusual currency
   pairs.
Manu Sporny:  agrees there are a lot of parallels between ripple
   and this group
Manu Sporny:  welcomes erik and evan

Topic: Internet Governance Forum

Manu Sporny:  internet governance coming up
Pindar Wong:  UN meeting, 1000+ participants
Pindar Wong:  meet to talk about challenges in their respective
   economies
Pindar Wong:  issues are raised to manage expectations of policy
   makers.
Pindar Wong:  what could a universal payment system for the web
   could enable?
Pindar Wong:  this process is a selection process, pindar's
   proposal was selected, one objective is to provide tech info for
   policy makers
Pindar Wong:  this is a kind of recruitment exercise, bringing
   new payments topics to traditional payment areas
Pindar Wong:  it's not about financial network, or virtual
   currencies, but about discussing the nature of trade
Pindar Wong:  looking at trading of virtual goods in gaming
   environs and dealing with policy issues that arise from this
Pindar Wong:  the next 200 years will be dominated with the trade
   in virtual goods.
Manu Sporny:  I'll be joining pindar in Bali
Manu Sporny:  promoting the work of this group
Manu Sporny:  any questions on the IGF?
Pindar Wong:  where might the universal payment system for the
   web be most welcome?
Pindar Wong:  it's important to involve the international
   community
Manu Sporny:  if other nations have a correct regulatory environ,
   it could be positive for launching some of this financial tech
Pindar Wong:  this is definitely a mobile focused effort as well
Manu Sporny:  this is why FxOS work is so important
Manu Sporny:  we need open payment standards for the web
Manu Sporny:  that said, many details need to be worked out
Erik Anderson:  I 2nd everything pindar said
Erik Anderson:  I know folks that are going abroad to work in
   more open environments
Erik Anderson:  hopefully government regulations in America wont
   get in the way

Topic: Web Payment Conference Schedule

Manu Sporny:
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webpayments/2013Sep/0030.html
Manu Sporny:  4 of speaking engagements, presenting web payments
   at SIBOS
Manu Sporny:  happening next week in Dubai
Manu Sporny:  giving 4 presentations and 1 workshop
Manu Sporny:  workshop is 2 hours, talking about payswarm,
   ripple, FirefoxOS
Manu Sporny:  lot of opportunity to get the word out with banks
   and financial institutes
Manu Sporny:  edge conference in NYC, with Kumar the following
   week
Manu Sporny:  also going to FT, getty, and Bloomberg
Manu Sporny:  to discuss impact on publishing industry
Manu Sporny:  will discuss price stability and using bitcoin on
   the web
Manu Sporny:  6-8 presentations in the next month on web payments
Manu Sporny:  Oct will be IGF in Bali
Manu Sporny:  any questions on the speaking engagements?
Manu Sporny:  will be in Menlo Park in Oct to talk with Google
   and Mozilla

Topic: Update on Web Payments Summer of Code Progress

Andrei Oprea:  my update is I added possibility to delete assets
Andrei Oprea:  deleting and updating assets has been added to
   marketplace
Andrei Oprea:  resigning the process and making it valid
Manu Sporny: http://appstoredemo.payswarm.com/
Andrei Oprea:  appstore demo is working for me
David I. Lehn: has an issue logging into the demo
Andrei Oprea:  as long as it's updated with my pull requests
Manu Sporny:  issues with the demo, will deal with it later
Andrei Oprea:  question regarding the payee field in the assets
Andrei Oprea:  destination is set to the marketplace
Andrei Oprea:  actually it should be the user, do I add another
   entry with account info of the user?
Manu Sporny:  correct
Manu Sporny:  you can set up sale so marketplace takes a cut
Manu Sporny:  if that app sold for a dollar, so you can make it
   inclusive or exclusive in terms of marketplace fee
Manu Sporny:  unlimited payees can be added
Manu Sporny:  all the money will be split on purchase
Andrei Oprea:  how is it split evenly?
Manu Sporny:  can be split on % or flat fee
Manu Sporny:  very flexible
Manu Sporny:  can program splits that make sense for the
   developer
Manu Sporny:  the end user just sees a price
Dave Longley:  it's called payee rate type i believe
Manu Sporny:  fantastic work andreio

Topic: Simplifying the Web Commerce API

Manu Sporny:  some discussion that came out of payments workshop
Manu Sporny:
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webpayments/2013Sep/0019.html
Manu Sporny:  kumar has made a proposal
Kumar McMillan:  what moz has shipped on FxOS is an api called
   navigator.mozPay()
Kumar McMillan:  the goal was to use what existed on the web and
   add things that were missing
Kumar McMillan:  new concept of mobile OS built on the web, had
   to add things like battery API, and other things that access the
   phone
Kumar McMillan:  payments functionality was more elusive at the
   time, need a secure way to enter credentials, and work with
   carrier billing in addition to paying with a CC
Kumar McMillan:  we were also considering a federated payment
   system, not sure exactly what that would mean in practice
Kumar McMillan:  persona is a federated login, but that doesn't
   translate to the payments space, experimentation happened but it
   didn't go anywhere in this area
Kumar McMillan:  the first goal of mozPay was to fill in the gaps
   for payments functionality that doesn't exist today, the second
   goal would be federated payments on the web.
Kumar McMillan:  it's just a proposal, not a decision.
Kumar McMillan:  the crux is, mozPay() is hard to integrate for
   folks that already have their own payment flow
Kumar McMillan:  paypal for example
Kumar McMillan:  what we wanted to do now, is pull out some of
   the new functionality we've added to the web, i.e. carrier
   billing, network information
Kumar McMillan:  all these things could be used by developers in
   there own way, pull out this functionality and expose it
Kumar McMillan:  maybe you want the ability to send a silent API
   to your short code service to set up carrier billing
Kumar McMillan:  there is not a lot that we've identified on the
   web that you can't already do, so these pieces are pretty minimal
Kumar McMillan:  zong is paypal's carrier billing, it works
   already on the web
Kumar McMillan:  I have a theory that the payswarm protocol works
   on the web today
Manu Sporny:  that's correct
Manu Sporny:  interesting usecases could be enabled if it was
   built into the browser
Manu Sporny:  concerned about mozilla's focus, wants moz to think
   about a decentralized model of payments for the web
Manu Sporny:  at a high level, is there a desire at mozilla to
   see things like ripple and bitcoin continue to mature, is that
   interesting to mozilla's core mission?
Kumar McMillan:  for sure, this is just an open discussion
Kumar McMillan:  we work out in the open, and we are working it
   out
Kumar McMillan:  but we don't want to impose the JWT handshake if
   it's not going to get used or be useful
Kumar McMillan:  maybe a better way emerges via bitcoin. would be
   great if that can be given a chance to be tested by the market
Kumar McMillan:  the web doesn't need anything new for those
   protocols to be tested
Kumar McMillan:  this can be done through agreement to use a
   given protocol
Kumar McMillan:  maybe vendors don't need to add things to the
   platform for this, and it becomes more a question of promoting a
   protocol
Kumar McMillan:  we are not dealing with PCI compliance right now
Kumar McMillan:  it's unclear how mozilla would push
   decentralized payments forward given it's not a financial
   institution
Manu Sporny:  I understand that, and those are very good points
Kumar McMillan:  we shouldn't impose a standard that hasn't been
   well tested, could slow down other efforts. putting it on the
   platform takes time to update devices with future versions
Manu Sporny:  payswarm does follow design principles of Persona,
   must be implementable via shims, but over time we could build web
   apis into the browser
Manu Sporny:  payswarm is built this way to allow quick iteration
Manu Sporny:  there is a way forward here without browser
   integration, want to make sure mozilla is still interested in
   participating in open payment platform discussions.
Manu Sporny:  hopes Mozilla can be a champion for decentralized
   payments
Travis Choma:  Yeah, that makes sense. I think a lot of the
   questions here are what we're dealing with short term, vs. the
   long term vision. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Manu Sporny:  the idea that the browser could execute a payment,
   with key for signing purchase request, one approach would be to
   fall back to web crypto api
Manu Sporny:  the other thing is that you can store the digital
   receipts in your browser, purchase history within the browser
Manu Sporny:  browser could access parts of ecommerce sites based
   on transmitting receipts
Manu Sporny:  avoids payment processors tracking purchasing
   behavior across sites
Manu Sporny:  would be good to have digital receipts cached in
   the browser
Manu Sporny:  payment tech in the browser deals with proof of
   purchase
Kumar McMillan:  in order for that to work, what is needed, is
   some sort of private key on the device, in FxOS and mobile
   devices is a usecase beyond payments, NFC as well. need a secure
   element in sims to enable private keys on the device
Kumar McMillan:  client side behavior should be possible with
   secure element
Manu Sporny:  there are multiple ways to solve this problem
Manu Sporny:  doesn't know if the secure element is enough to
   address the proof of purchase mechanism
Manu Sporny:  might need a web api to fetch from a remote receipt
   store
Kumar McMillan:  there is a more general purpose web api that is
   neeeded potentially for storing things securely on devices beyond
   payments
Kumar McMillan:  might need to be a user permission
Manu Sporny:  perhaps a generic local object store, receipts,
   virtual goods, etc
Manu Sporny:  hand waving territory, but the discussion is good
Manu Sporny:  the other major category is doing a purchase
   without internet connectivity, buy from vending machine over NFC
Manu Sporny:  the idea is the vending machine would have a local
   web server, and the mobile phone would get the proof of purchase
   and deliver it to the vending machine
Kumar McMillan:  getting into bitcoin territory
Manu Sporny:  being able to do transactions offline and join the
   network later and reconcile
Manu Sporny:  we need to make sure we address the usecases
Manu Sporny:  your point still stands, maybe we don't need this
   in the browser at the moment
Manu Sporny:  we want this generic as possible, so new
   innovations can happen outside of payments as well
Erik Anderson:  hi, back on the call, I have a background in
   crypto, happy to discuss offline
Erik Anderson:  you can try QR codes
Kumar McMillan:  those require some sort of server, but that's
   fine, storing things on device is dangerous, agreed.
Erik Anderson:  you need proof not only of receipt but also of
   identity
Manu Sporny:  happy to discuss it online
Manu Sporny:  hope to have a call next week, will be calling into
   Dubai
Manu Sporny:  last questions?
Kumar McMillan:  thanks for the clarifications of usecases
Evan Schwartz:  interested in talking about private key on device
   or in the browser
Manu Sporny:  talking with the w3c about some of this at W3C TPAC
Manu Sporny:  thanks all, let's chat next week.

-- manu

-- 
Manu Sporny (skype: msporny, twitter: manusporny, G+: +Manu Sporny)
Founder/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc.
blog: Meritora - Web payments commercial launch
http://blog.meritora.com/launch/
Received on Wednesday, 11 September 2013 21:19:50 UTC

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