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Web Payments Telecon Minutes for 2013-09-11

From: Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 17:19:27 -0400
Message-ID: <5230DE5F.2000709@digitalbazaar.com>
To: Web Payments <public-webpayments@w3.org>
Thanks to Travis Choma for scribing today! The minutes for this
week's Web Payments telecon are now available here:


Full text of the discussion follows for archival purposes at the W3C.
Audio of the meeting is available as well (link provided below).

Web Payments Community Group Telecon Minutes for 2013-09-11

   1. Introduction of New Members
   2. Internet Governance Forum
   3. Web Payment Conference Schedule
   4. Update on Web Payments Summer of Code Progress
   5. Simplifying the Web Commerce API
   Manu Sporny
   Travis Choma
   Travis Choma, Erik Anderson, Evan Schwartz, Manu Sporny,
   Pindar Wong, Andrei Oprea, David I. Lehn, Dave Longley,
   Kumar McMillan

Travis Choma is scribing.

Topic: Introduction of New Members

Erik Anderson:  Here from Bloomberg LP
   http://www.bloomberg.com/company/ . I've been involved in tech
   for 25 years, lots of engineering work, gov, nasa, startups, 7
   years at bloomberg,
Erik Anderson:  finance is taking a different turn over the next
Erik Anderson:  interested in micropayments, and new technologies
   in finance, driving governments as well.
Erik Anderson:  here to listen in and contribute
Evan Schwartz:  From Ripple - http://ripple.com , listening in,
   have very similar goals
Evan Schwartz:  web payments as an arch of the internet, and easy
   to send money, ripple is a decentralized payment network in any
Evan Schwartz:  immediately with no fees
Evan Schwartz:  ripple does have a digital currency, emphasis is
   on the payment network, not the currency. The xrp ripple currency
   is meant as a bridge.
Evan Schwartz:  facilitates exchanges between unusual currency
Manu Sporny:  agrees there are a lot of parallels between ripple
   and this group
Manu Sporny:  welcomes erik and evan

Topic: Internet Governance Forum

Manu Sporny:  internet governance coming up
Pindar Wong:  UN meeting, 1000+ participants
Pindar Wong:  meet to talk about challenges in their respective
Pindar Wong:  issues are raised to manage expectations of policy
Pindar Wong:  what could a universal payment system for the web
   could enable?
Pindar Wong:  this process is a selection process, pindar's
   proposal was selected, one objective is to provide tech info for
   policy makers
Pindar Wong:  this is a kind of recruitment exercise, bringing
   new payments topics to traditional payment areas
Pindar Wong:  it's not about financial network, or virtual
   currencies, but about discussing the nature of trade
Pindar Wong:  looking at trading of virtual goods in gaming
   environs and dealing with policy issues that arise from this
Pindar Wong:  the next 200 years will be dominated with the trade
   in virtual goods.
Manu Sporny:  I'll be joining pindar in Bali
Manu Sporny:  promoting the work of this group
Manu Sporny:  any questions on the IGF?
Pindar Wong:  where might the universal payment system for the
   web be most welcome?
Pindar Wong:  it's important to involve the international
Manu Sporny:  if other nations have a correct regulatory environ,
   it could be positive for launching some of this financial tech
Pindar Wong:  this is definitely a mobile focused effort as well
Manu Sporny:  this is why FxOS work is so important
Manu Sporny:  we need open payment standards for the web
Manu Sporny:  that said, many details need to be worked out
Erik Anderson:  I 2nd everything pindar said
Erik Anderson:  I know folks that are going abroad to work in
   more open environments
Erik Anderson:  hopefully government regulations in America wont
   get in the way

Topic: Web Payment Conference Schedule

Manu Sporny:
Manu Sporny:  4 of speaking engagements, presenting web payments
   at SIBOS
Manu Sporny:  happening next week in Dubai
Manu Sporny:  giving 4 presentations and 1 workshop
Manu Sporny:  workshop is 2 hours, talking about payswarm,
   ripple, FirefoxOS
Manu Sporny:  lot of opportunity to get the word out with banks
   and financial institutes
Manu Sporny:  edge conference in NYC, with Kumar the following
Manu Sporny:  also going to FT, getty, and Bloomberg
Manu Sporny:  to discuss impact on publishing industry
Manu Sporny:  will discuss price stability and using bitcoin on
   the web
Manu Sporny:  6-8 presentations in the next month on web payments
Manu Sporny:  Oct will be IGF in Bali
Manu Sporny:  any questions on the speaking engagements?
Manu Sporny:  will be in Menlo Park in Oct to talk with Google
   and Mozilla

Topic: Update on Web Payments Summer of Code Progress

Andrei Oprea:  my update is I added possibility to delete assets
Andrei Oprea:  deleting and updating assets has been added to
Andrei Oprea:  resigning the process and making it valid
Manu Sporny: http://appstoredemo.payswarm.com/
Andrei Oprea:  appstore demo is working for me
David I. Lehn: has an issue logging into the demo
Andrei Oprea:  as long as it's updated with my pull requests
Manu Sporny:  issues with the demo, will deal with it later
Andrei Oprea:  question regarding the payee field in the assets
Andrei Oprea:  destination is set to the marketplace
Andrei Oprea:  actually it should be the user, do I add another
   entry with account info of the user?
Manu Sporny:  correct
Manu Sporny:  you can set up sale so marketplace takes a cut
Manu Sporny:  if that app sold for a dollar, so you can make it
   inclusive or exclusive in terms of marketplace fee
Manu Sporny:  unlimited payees can be added
Manu Sporny:  all the money will be split on purchase
Andrei Oprea:  how is it split evenly?
Manu Sporny:  can be split on % or flat fee
Manu Sporny:  very flexible
Manu Sporny:  can program splits that make sense for the
Manu Sporny:  the end user just sees a price
Dave Longley:  it's called payee rate type i believe
Manu Sporny:  fantastic work andreio

Topic: Simplifying the Web Commerce API

Manu Sporny:  some discussion that came out of payments workshop
Manu Sporny:
Manu Sporny:  kumar has made a proposal
Kumar McMillan:  what moz has shipped on FxOS is an api called
Kumar McMillan:  the goal was to use what existed on the web and
   add things that were missing
Kumar McMillan:  new concept of mobile OS built on the web, had
   to add things like battery API, and other things that access the
Kumar McMillan:  payments functionality was more elusive at the
   time, need a secure way to enter credentials, and work with
   carrier billing in addition to paying with a CC
Kumar McMillan:  we were also considering a federated payment
   system, not sure exactly what that would mean in practice
Kumar McMillan:  persona is a federated login, but that doesn't
   translate to the payments space, experimentation happened but it
   didn't go anywhere in this area
Kumar McMillan:  the first goal of mozPay was to fill in the gaps
   for payments functionality that doesn't exist today, the second
   goal would be federated payments on the web.
Kumar McMillan:  it's just a proposal, not a decision.
Kumar McMillan:  the crux is, mozPay() is hard to integrate for
   folks that already have their own payment flow
Kumar McMillan:  paypal for example
Kumar McMillan:  what we wanted to do now, is pull out some of
   the new functionality we've added to the web, i.e. carrier
   billing, network information
Kumar McMillan:  all these things could be used by developers in
   there own way, pull out this functionality and expose it
Kumar McMillan:  maybe you want the ability to send a silent API
   to your short code service to set up carrier billing
Kumar McMillan:  there is not a lot that we've identified on the
   web that you can't already do, so these pieces are pretty minimal
Kumar McMillan:  zong is paypal's carrier billing, it works
   already on the web
Kumar McMillan:  I have a theory that the payswarm protocol works
   on the web today
Manu Sporny:  that's correct
Manu Sporny:  interesting usecases could be enabled if it was
   built into the browser
Manu Sporny:  concerned about mozilla's focus, wants moz to think
   about a decentralized model of payments for the web
Manu Sporny:  at a high level, is there a desire at mozilla to
   see things like ripple and bitcoin continue to mature, is that
   interesting to mozilla's core mission?
Kumar McMillan:  for sure, this is just an open discussion
Kumar McMillan:  we work out in the open, and we are working it
Kumar McMillan:  but we don't want to impose the JWT handshake if
   it's not going to get used or be useful
Kumar McMillan:  maybe a better way emerges via bitcoin. would be
   great if that can be given a chance to be tested by the market
Kumar McMillan:  the web doesn't need anything new for those
   protocols to be tested
Kumar McMillan:  this can be done through agreement to use a
   given protocol
Kumar McMillan:  maybe vendors don't need to add things to the
   platform for this, and it becomes more a question of promoting a
Kumar McMillan:  we are not dealing with PCI compliance right now
Kumar McMillan:  it's unclear how mozilla would push
   decentralized payments forward given it's not a financial
Manu Sporny:  I understand that, and those are very good points
Kumar McMillan:  we shouldn't impose a standard that hasn't been
   well tested, could slow down other efforts. putting it on the
   platform takes time to update devices with future versions
Manu Sporny:  payswarm does follow design principles of Persona,
   must be implementable via shims, but over time we could build web
   apis into the browser
Manu Sporny:  payswarm is built this way to allow quick iteration
Manu Sporny:  there is a way forward here without browser
   integration, want to make sure mozilla is still interested in
   participating in open payment platform discussions.
Manu Sporny:  hopes Mozilla can be a champion for decentralized
Travis Choma:  Yeah, that makes sense. I think a lot of the
   questions here are what we're dealing with short term, vs. the
   long term vision. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Manu Sporny:  the idea that the browser could execute a payment,
   with key for signing purchase request, one approach would be to
   fall back to web crypto api
Manu Sporny:  the other thing is that you can store the digital
   receipts in your browser, purchase history within the browser
Manu Sporny:  browser could access parts of ecommerce sites based
   on transmitting receipts
Manu Sporny:  avoids payment processors tracking purchasing
   behavior across sites
Manu Sporny:  would be good to have digital receipts cached in
   the browser
Manu Sporny:  payment tech in the browser deals with proof of
Kumar McMillan:  in order for that to work, what is needed, is
   some sort of private key on the device, in FxOS and mobile
   devices is a usecase beyond payments, NFC as well. need a secure
   element in sims to enable private keys on the device
Kumar McMillan:  client side behavior should be possible with
   secure element
Manu Sporny:  there are multiple ways to solve this problem
Manu Sporny:  doesn't know if the secure element is enough to
   address the proof of purchase mechanism
Manu Sporny:  might need a web api to fetch from a remote receipt
Kumar McMillan:  there is a more general purpose web api that is
   neeeded potentially for storing things securely on devices beyond
Kumar McMillan:  might need to be a user permission
Manu Sporny:  perhaps a generic local object store, receipts,
   virtual goods, etc
Manu Sporny:  hand waving territory, but the discussion is good
Manu Sporny:  the other major category is doing a purchase
   without internet connectivity, buy from vending machine over NFC
Manu Sporny:  the idea is the vending machine would have a local
   web server, and the mobile phone would get the proof of purchase
   and deliver it to the vending machine
Kumar McMillan:  getting into bitcoin territory
Manu Sporny:  being able to do transactions offline and join the
   network later and reconcile
Manu Sporny:  we need to make sure we address the usecases
Manu Sporny:  your point still stands, maybe we don't need this
   in the browser at the moment
Manu Sporny:  we want this generic as possible, so new
   innovations can happen outside of payments as well
Erik Anderson:  hi, back on the call, I have a background in
   crypto, happy to discuss offline
Erik Anderson:  you can try QR codes
Kumar McMillan:  those require some sort of server, but that's
   fine, storing things on device is dangerous, agreed.
Erik Anderson:  you need proof not only of receipt but also of
Manu Sporny:  happy to discuss it online
Manu Sporny:  hope to have a call next week, will be calling into
Manu Sporny:  last questions?
Kumar McMillan:  thanks for the clarifications of usecases
Evan Schwartz:  interested in talking about private key on device
   or in the browser
Manu Sporny:  talking with the w3c about some of this at W3C TPAC
Manu Sporny:  thanks all, let's chat next week.

-- manu

Manu Sporny (skype: msporny, twitter: manusporny, G+: +Manu Sporny)
Founder/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc.
blog: Meritora - Web payments commercial launch
Received on Wednesday, 11 September 2013 21:19:50 UTC

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