- From: Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>
- Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 22:33:21 -0400
- To: Web Payments <public-webpayments@w3.org>
Thanks to Dave Lehn for scribing today! The minutes for this week's Web
Payments telecon are now available here:
https://payswarm.com/minutes/2013-10-23/
Full text of the discussion follows for archival purposes at the W3C.
Audio of the meeting is available as well (link provided below).
--------------
Web Payments Community Group Telecon Minutes for 2013-10-23
Agenda:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webpayments/2013Oct/0094.html
Topics:
1. Upcoming meetings in Hong Kong and China
2. Web Payments at W3C Technical Plenary
3. Web Payments in Silicon Valley (last week)
4. Web Payments at United Nations / IGF 2013
5. Web Payments WG Charter Proposal
Chair:
Manu Sporny
Scribe:
David I. Lehn
Present:
David I. Lehn, Manu Sporny, Pindar Wong, Dave Raggett,
Kumar McMillan, Dave Longley, Evan Schwartz, Madhu Nott
Audio:
http://payswarm.com/minutes/2013-10-23/audio.ogg
David I. Lehn is scribing.
Topic: Upcoming meetings in Hong Kong and China
Manu Sporny: We have a number of public events coming up in Hong
Kong and Shenzen, China over the next 3 weeks that deal with Web
Payments, Linked Data, and the work we're doing here:
Manu Sporny: Tuesday October 29, Open Data and Creative Commons
Manu Sporny:
https://plus.google.com/events/cncsnn9d574bpip88d2pbp1drn8?authkey=CLHs296f_OexCw
Manu Sporny: Finance Innovation Forum 2013, Nov 5, 11.00 HKT
Manu Sporny: Keynote 4: The rise of web payments and implications
for banks and Hong Kong
Manu Sporny:
http://financeinnovation.questexevents.net/2013/hk/agenda
Pindar Wong: Two public meetings being circulated. One that is
directly web payments related on the 5th of November, the
Financial Innovation Forum. Manu is keynoting on that. This is
going to be the highlight as far as I'm concerned. Manu is going
to meet with members working on open data to talk about JSON-LD
on Tuesday October the 29th. Those are the public meetings.
We'll be there for two weeks so there will be private meetings.
If you know of anyone interested we'd love to meet up face to
face.
Pindar Wong: Publicize this where relevant. The effort at IGF
and Hong Kong is to manage expectations and solicit talent into
the group where talent is needed.
Manu Sporny: Another thing we'll try to do while in Honk Kong is
try to get local banking community involved in these meetings.
We have two public meetings where banks could attend anonymously
or pseudo-anonymously and learn more about the work we're doing.
Manu Sporny: This is a follow up from talking with many of the
international banks at SIBOS 2013. World banks we met with in
Dubai may be interested in these meetings. We're going to be
talking about Yuan liberalization and the part that Web Payments
may play in that strategy. Hong Kong is big financial center.
Have a number of international banks we talked to at SIBOS are
based in Hong Kong. Trying to meet up with Hong Kong
counterparts to continue to conversation.
Manu Sporny: After meetings in Hong Kong next two weeks is the
W3C TPAC and I'll be attending and doing talks on web payments.
Dave Raggett: TPAC web site http://www.w3.org/2013/11/TPAC/
Manu Sporny: This week is meeting in Bali with Internet
Governance Forum (IGF), part of United Nations, next two weeks in
Hong Kong talking to world banks, creative commons, and open data
initiatives, the following week is the W3C TPAC.
Topic: Web Payments at W3C Technical Plenary
Manu Sporny: Need to plan for W3C web payments workshop coming
up in 2014 in Paris. Dave Raggett could you give background and
where we are on that meeting?
Dave Raggett: Sure. First off, I'm a member of the W3C staff
and have worked with them since about the beginning of the W3C.
I'm organizing this workshop and it's slipped a month from
February to late March. It will be held in the old stock
exchange in Paris. We're in the process of sorting out the
details now.
Manu Sporny: Is the idea that we're trying to get as many
government organizations, banks, payment companies, (broad
constituency) into the workshop and then decide what the charter
will be after that fact? [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Manu Sporny: Or is it more general from a W3C perspective, more
like a meeting where we see if there's interest at all and figure
out the charter at a later point? [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Dave Raggett: I think it's about general interest and look for
momentum and consensus to get something done, we have to have a
broad enough constituency and we need key players to make sure
it's well deployed [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Manu Sporny: Is venue and date nailed down?
Dave Raggett: February fell through, may be last week of March.
Manu Sporny: Please send out details once we know them, a number
of large banks and technology companies are asking for a venue
and date so that they can schedule their folks to attend.
Dave Raggett: Will do that.
Dave Raggett: Who's going to TPAC?
Manu Sporny: I'll be there, not sure who else will be. TPAC is
pretty W3C specific *and* it's in China. Many of the banking and
payment communities have no reason to attend, or if they do, it's
hard for them to do so. We'll try to have a breakout session if
there is enough interest in Web Payments. There will be a number
of presentations on Web Payments and Linked Data. I'll be meeting
face-to-face w/ other groups whose work we depend on (Web Crypto,
Sys Apps (NFC), Web Apps (Request Autocomplete), etc)
Topic: Web Payments in Silicon Valley (last week)
Manu Sporny: Met with a number of large tech companies, about 8
of them. Won't say who because most of them don't want to be on
record as being interested.
Manu Sporny: These are companies that are involved in payments
work or online finance initiatives. Lots of interest in web
payments work.
Manu Sporny: I went through though our specs with them and each
one pointed out which specs are of interest to them. Those are
what's in the charter proposal we'll discuss later in the call.
interest in new specific specs.
Manu Sporny: Companies are interested in joining web payments
group, or have already done so anonymously.
Manu Sporny: Companies might want to provide letters of support
vs coming to workshops.
Dave Raggett: Better if companies come to workshop to engage in
discussion, but other support is helpful.
Manu Sporny: How much support is needed?
Dave Raggett: We can support about a hundred people for the
workshop. It's not just about numbers but commitment.
Dave Raggett: For instance, for a browser API to be successful,
we'd need browser vendors commitment.
Topic: Web Payments at United Nations / IGF 2013
Manu Sporny: I've been at the Internet Governance Forum this
week presenting on Web Payments. The IGF is a group chartered by
the United Nations to figure out regulatory and policy issues
around the Internet, human rights, financial equiality, etc. Web
payments work received well. Met with many government
representatives. Good interest. They want to get our work into
emerging nations and I've been approached by key figures at the
World Bank, large international banks, and emerging nation
governments. Web Payments has been on many of the agendas at the
conference and people's eyes light up when I say that we're with
the W3C and we're working on a universal standard for payment on
the Web.
Manu Sporny: There is a lack of standards for managing value
exchange via the Web. There's a need for web payments, and these
governments know it. It's a pain point for them, so that we're
coming in with a solution is being very well received.
Manu Sporny: I'm trying to get many of these people to the Web
Payments workshop during the last week of March in Paris in 2014.
Topic: Web Payments WG Charter Proposal
Manu Sporny: We need to narrow work this group can effectively
address. We have a number of specs that we could feed into an
official W3C Web Payments WG.
Manu Sporny: I sent an email to the group about all the work
we've been working on.
Manu Sporny:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webpayments/2013Oct/0090.html
Manu Sporny: The specs are broken into 3 categories: specs that
are almost done, specs that could be published as a first public
working draft soon, and specs that need lots of work to be
considered for inclusion.
Manu Sporny: kumar, talked about Secure Frame, do we want to add
that to charter?
Kumar McMillan: Secure Frame doesn't have clear owner at Mozilla
Kumar McMillan: Of all work we've done on payments, we have the
least experience with it
Manu Sporny: Ok, so we might want to wait on that, but we have
some time to make the decision.
Kumar McMillan: Might be premature to propose anything now (4-5
mo). Can advise on what didn't work. Can offer insight into
carrier billing. That is turning into most concrete web
platform. Things like initiating SMS for carrier billing.
Manu Sporny: So, Mozilla might want to contribute SMS carrier
billing work, but that's about it?
Kumar McMillan: Yes, might get geo location, device interaction
work
Manu Sporny: Ok, let's talk about the 'specs that are almost
done'
Manu Sporny: [overview of rdfa 1.1]. RDFa basically done along
with associated specs. Not much else that needs to be done for
payments group to express products and items for sale.
Manu Sporny: [overview of JSON-LD] JSON-LD going through final
spec process as we speak. Should be finalized soon.
Manu Sporny: believe that will be web standard by the end of the
year
Manu Sporny: [overview of HTTP Signatures] Using for payswarm
work, publishing via IETF, may not make it through this cycle of
IETF spec publications.
Manu Sporny: Will try to push through if possible. May also try
to use a W3C web payments charter to do the work here. That's
kinda how HTTP 2.0 is being developed.
Manu Sporny: Those specs are mostly done with high possibility
of success without a web payments charter.
Manu Sporny: Let's now discuss 'Specs that could be drafts'
Manu Sporny: These are specs that could be published as first
pubic working drafts by mid next year.
Manu Sporny: [overview of HTTP Keys] About doing secure messing
via json-ld.
Manu Sporny: Makes web into decentralized key infrastrucure.
Implementations available, needs some work to be publishable and
the spec needs a new name.
Manu Sporny: [overview of RequestAutocomplete] First use is
filling out credit card and address info. Google is pushing this
through the Web Apps WG, so they probably wouldn't want to put it
in Web Payments WG.
Manu Sporny: [overview of web payments, web commerce specs].
specs out of date, but implementations exist like
dev.payswarm.com.
Manu Sporny: all these previously discussed specs come together
in the web payments and web commerce specs, it's the reason RDFa,
JSON-LD, Secure Messaging/HTTP Keys, etc. exist.
Manu Sporny: Are there other specs that we could get into the
work for near term publication?
Dave Longley: We might want to get RDF graph nomalization spec
in there.
Manu Sporny: Need that to normalize data to digitally sign for
payswarm work.
Manu Sporny: It's a highly technical spec, need to make sure it
is technically correct.
Dave Longley: new algorithm is simpler than older one, may be
easier to update.
Manu Sporny: Other specs to put in here? Carrier billing spec
from Mozilla?
Kumar McMillan: Didn't mention it since we might not have enough
time. Don't think we could get something done in 2 months.
Manu Sporny: Doesn't have to be two months but we need an idea
of who is working on these specs. Need editors and commitments
on specs to see it through publication. Without commitment we
won't put it in the charter. Need at least one and ideally two
implementors.
Manu Sporny: There's time to discuss if things get in the
charter, we still have a few months of wiggle room.
Manu Sporny: Let's discuss the 'Specs we need to create'
Manu Sporny: [payment intents overview]. There has been
innovation on crowdfunding since this spec was written. May need
to look at other solutions from groups such as bitcoin and ripple
communities.
Manu Sporny: Need to talk to Ripple Labs to see how we can
collaborate.
Evan Schwartz: Yes, we need to have conversation about how we
can collaborate on this stuff. The programmable contracts stuff
is something that's key to Ripple and we'd like to find a way to
leverage that in the Web Payments group.
Manu Sporny: May have higher level developer specs that tie into
backend Ripple network that does heavy lifting.
Manu Sporny: [rdf graph normalization overview]. Not sure if we
have time and resources for this, but it's improtant for digital
signatures on JSON-LD data.
Manu Sporny: [web identity overview]. We want to hook into
Mozilla Persona. Spec not written yet. Lots of initiatives for
web identity.
Manu Sporny: resources spread thin, may not be able to work on
this, which would be a shame because I think we have a solid
solution to the problem of Know Your Customer.
Manu Sporny: [secure frame spec]. requirements are too loose
now, may take work to get it to spec state.
Manu Sporny: [external payment initiation overview].
David I. Lehn: What's different between payments intents?
Dave Longley: name is confusing, external payments initiation
closer to web intents, payment intents more about crowdfunding
and similar.
Manu Sporny: payments initiation allows callout to external
application and response back to browser. Folks like Bitcoin or
Ripple could use it to initiate and carry out a payment. no spec
or editor yet.
Manu Sporny: That was a rundown of all the specs we've been
involved in.
Manu Sporny: Some feedback that group is working on too much at
once.
Kumar McMillan: Comment on external payments initiation. People
working on NFC payments. Similar to Secure Element work in SIM
cards. They have Web NFC API now.
Dave Raggett: W3C has NFC working group about to publish a
draft. Has a payments use case. Work in other groups relevant to
this group.
Manu Sporny: I was not aware the NFC stuff was that far along.
Dave Raggett: Should be out in a few days. Lots of this stuff,
including payments, may need browser buy-in.
Manu Sporny: We have designed the Web Payments stuff to not need
any browser buy-in. We wanted to have APIs not require browser
buy-in. But get advantages if browser are involved.
Manu Sporny: Does this path look right or wrong? Do we want to
proceed down this path?
No objections from group to current direction.
Manu Sporny: thanks for the summary. I need to drop off for
another meeting. [scribe assist by Kumar McMillan]
Madhu Nott: I'd like clarification on why these specs were
chosen.
Manu Sporny: Before the community group was started some of
these specs were being worked on. Minimum bar is having editors
and interest to work on each spec and carrying them through the
W3C Process, which can take 3-4 years. The specs that are being
considered have developer commitments, implementations, and
editors.
Manu Sporny: Other comments on the direction of the group?
No comments from the group.
Manu Sporny: Ok, then we'll try to use this as a basis for a
charter for the group. Won't be set in stone for a very long
while. Even after workshop in 2014, we can make changes.
Manu Sporny: The next step will be to formulate the charter. Let
the group know if you have any issues with the direction as you
think of issues. Thanks for the call everyone, we'll chat next
week.
-- manu
--
Manu Sporny (skype: msporny, twitter: manusporny, G+: +Manu Sporny)
Founder/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc.
blog: Meritora - Web payments commercial launch
http://blog.meritora.com/launch/
Received on Thursday, 24 October 2013 03:31:59 UTC