- From: Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>
- Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 17:30:49 -0400
- To: Web Payments <public-webpayments@w3.org>
Thanks to Dave Longley for scribing! The minutes for today's telecon are
available here:
http://payswarm.com/minutes/2012-06-26/
Full text of the discussion follows for archival purposes at the W3C.
Audio of the meeting is available as well (link provided below).
--------------
Web Payments Community Group Telecon Minutes for 2012-06-26
Agenda:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webpayments/2012Jun/0012.html
Topics:
1. Expressing alternative currencies
2. Currency mints and currency creation
Resolutions:
1. Create a /currency path off of the http://purl.org/ domain
for mapping ISO currency codes to URLs. Use those URLs in
PaySwarm to identify fiat currencies.
Chair:
Manu Sporny
Scribe:
Dave Longley
Present:
Manu Sporny, Dave Longley, David I. Lehn, Fabio Barone,
Jeff Sayre
Manu Sporny: Anything else that needs to be added to the Agenda?
Manu Sporny: Okay, moving to the first item.
Dave Longley is scribing.
Topic: Expressing alternative currencies
Manu Sporny: first up is expressing alternative currencies in
payswarm
Manu Sporny: so we had mentioned that payswarm supports multiple
currencies, mostly fiat currencies, etc. these types of
currencies are easier to work with
Manu Sporny: alternative currencies are different and don't
always follow the same model that fiat currencies use, one
example such a currency is work hours for time spent on a farm,
some kind of physical labor, etc.
Manu Sporny: the currency type is work hour and could be
exchanged for products on a farm, eg: 5 hours of work could get
you so many heads of lettuce.
Manu Sporny: we need a fairly universal way for how to identify
these currencies
Manu Sporny: currently we allow two types of things in the
payswarm spec/messages in the currency field
Manu Sporny: one of these is a string that is an ISO code for
fiat currencies like USD, JPY, etc.
Manu Sporny: these are recognized by the world's financial
industry
Manu Sporny: the other thing we support is a URL.
Manu Sporny: we think that a URL is the best way to handle
minting your own currency (custom, alternative currencies)
Manu Sporny: once you create that URL somewhere it could be used
to transact/exchange/mint that currency
Manu Sporny: should we be using text strings/numbers that
map/URLs, should there be a central repository for this
information?
Manu Sporny: should we use some other method for identifying
currencies?
Dave Longley: Well, we're certainly trying to be very Webby
about this - URLs are generally what's used for providing
universal identifiers on the Web. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Dave Longley: There is no reason we shouldn't use those, that I
can think of. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Dave Longley: There may be some issues - what happens when a
currency is mapped to a URL... what happens when that URL goes
away? What happens when they lose the domain? [scribe assist by
Manu Sporny]
Dave Longley: If the URLs are also used as the API endpoint -
should they be secure? [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Dave Longley: I don't think using a string or a number would
solve those issues... let's go with a URL... [scribe assist by
Manu Sporny]
Dave Longley: If other fiat currencies use URLs, we should use
those... for virtual currencies, they should use a URL for their
identifier. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Dave Longley: We need to understand the downsides of using
URLs... [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
David I. Lehn: We may want URLs that are per-authorities...
maybe URLs would have information on them ... like ISO currency
codes that they're associated with. We could 'mint' new currency
URLs for USD... this may not work well with multiple PaySwarm
Authorities. Maybe we could have currency hashes? [scribe assist
by Manu Sporny]
David I. Lehn: It's possible to have some sort of association
between "USD" and a URL... [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
David I. Lehn:
http://www.schemacentral.com/sc/ubl20/t-clm54217_CurrencyCodeContentType.html
David I. Lehn: oasis has some currency stuff
David I. Lehn: codes with type of
urn:un:unece:uncefact:codelist:specification:54217:2001 or
something
David I. Lehn: http://www.schemacentral.com/sc/ubl20/ss.html
David I. Lehn: part of that UBL stuff
David I. Lehn: http://ripple-project.org/specification.html
David I. Lehn: ripple uses urn:ripple:units: + ISO code or some
other specific strings
Fabio Barone: I think most alt curr people are not that tech
savvy
Dave Longley: We might have to setup some sort of trust system -
separate payswarm authorities trust certain URLs... we don't want
different PAs creating URLs for things like USD... we'd have
interoperability issues. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Fabio Barone: thus you should be free to implement something
workable
Manu Sporny: something else that is very important is that we
make sure that whatever alternative currency mechanism we end up
creating is easily implemented by people who aren't very
technology-savvy
Manu Sporny: if someone wants to be able to create a local
community currency but doesn't know anything about payswarm they
should be able to go to a webpage and do it easily
Manu Sporny: if any payswarm authority could create a new
virtual currency we would need to make sure that they dont' go to
multiple payswarm authorities and create the same currency
Manu Sporny: ultimately, tawhauc is correct, we need to ensure
that it is very easy to implement.
Manu Sporny: the biggest danger for using URLs is that the URL
for the alternative currency goes away
Manu Sporny: that would be a big problem for all accounts
holding value in that currency
Fabio Barone: lots of alt curr projects start and then fade away
Manu Sporny: if we had a central account/URL service for these
URLs and we required all currencies to register with, this might
help mitigate the risk
David I. Lehn: is the problem the URL going away or the data
changing?
David I. Lehn: ISO codes are standardized, not really going to
change
Fabio Barone: should be robust enough to handle that
Manu Sporny: they still might disappear
Fabio Barone: if the URL goes away probably that project died....
Manu Sporny: tawhauc is right, the system should be robust
enough to handle that
Manu Sporny: this is a pretty serious concern if we're going to
use URLs
Manu Sporny: there are two things we could do, we have been
using the URL for the currency as the API end point as well
Manu Sporny: we could say that if the URL becomes unreachable at
some point
Manu Sporny: we could say that the only currency usable is that
which is circulating within the system (payswarm system)
Manu Sporny: we do want to be able to go to that URL to get new
currency
David I. Lehn: is that mixing the use of that URL?
Manu Sporny: we want to be able to both identify and add new
units of the currency into the system
Manu Sporny: do you think we should split these functions?
identity and minting?
David I. Lehn: is there only going to be one mint for a
particular currency?
David I. Lehn: it seems like the URL should have more
information on what the currency is
David I. Lehn: it seems that there should be two services, one
for more information on the currency
David I. Lehn: and one for interacting/minting
Manu Sporny: that's a good point, so we could split these two
Manu Sporny: is that a better design?
Manu Sporny: we could have the identifier say where all the
mints are
David I. Lehn: that's a little centralized in design
Manu Sporny: that might be a good idea to prevent run away
inflation, etc
Dave Longley: It is centralized in a sense... but I don't see
that as a big negative - there should be some centralized
location that talks about where the mints are for a currency.
[scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Fabio Barone: are you trying to address all kinds of virtual
currencies?
Dave Longley: There has to be some mechanism that decides
whether or not new money should be created - this may or may not
cause havoc/inflation if there is no coordination. Even if the
system is decentralized, they're going to have to coordinate at
some point. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Fabio Barone: there are all different kinds of designs
Fabio Barone: bitcoins are minted, there are timebanks, some
alternate currencies don't "mint" currencies
Fabio Barone: amounts just come into existence, etc.
Manu Sporny: we want to support as much as we can without things
becoming too complex
Manu Sporny: we want to support timebanks, time shares, being
able to exchange work hours for produce, etc.
Fabio Barone: it can be pretty simple ... these projects should
commit to having a URL
Fabio Barone: if a URL goes away it's their problem
Manu Sporny: i agree and that's the design direction we're
heading
Manu Sporny: however owns the URL is in charge of specifying who
the mint is and how it's minted, etc. all of that management
Manu Sporny: we just want to make sure we have all of the use
cases covered
Manu Sporny: there are two things working against each other: we
want the system to be as decentralized as possible, we also want
the currency to be centrally identified and easy to manage
Manu Sporny: we want to provide a very basic piece of open
source software that enables them to create a very simple
currency for themslves
Manu Sporny: the currency may be exchangeable with USD or not,
some are more complex than others
Manu Sporny: we generally agree that most of the responsibility
falls to the alternative currency managers
Fabio Barone: most of these alternative currencies are not
decentralized they are local
Manu Sporny: what we mean by decentralized within payswarm is
that anyone should be able to create their own currency
Manu Sporny: and transact with it
Manu Sporny: so if you want a currency that applies just to your
apartment :) or your town, locality, etc, you can do that
Manu Sporny: we want to generalize it enough to permit it to
apply to all of these various scenarios
Manu Sporny: does anyone think we should use something other
than a URL to identify currencies?
Manu Sporny: ok... so except for the major fiat currencies
Manu Sporny: we will be using a URL.
David I. Lehn: i still have an issue with mixing URLs and
strings for the same property
Manu Sporny: well the issue is that USD doesn't have a URL
David I. Lehn: there are some other projects that are trying to
use URLs but they are not standards
David I. Lehn: maybe we want a comment pseudo URL
David I. Lehn: maybe we should use a URN
Jeff Sayre: speaking of sovereign currencies, we had talked
about the royal canadian mintchip project
Jeff Sayre: i'm now in contact with them, i'll be talking to
them about looking at our materials, etc.
Jeff Sayre: perhaps they have already thought about some of
these issues (URL to identity currencies) and if not (either
way), maybe we can talk about this stuff with them
Manu Sporny: yes, we should do all we can to get them involved
Manu Sporny: we could create a purl.org URL for USD/etc.
Manu Sporny: if ISO comes by and wants to take over the URL we
could grant them ownership over it
Manu Sporny: maybe we should get in touch with ISO and see if
they'll create a URL for this
Manu Sporny: do you think it's worth reaching out to them? it
may take 4-5 years to get it approved
Jeff Sayre: +1
Manu Sporny: it might be easier for us to just create one at
purl.org and transition over to ISO if it takes off
Dave Longley: +1
Manu Sporny: Do we want something like this:
http://purl.org/iso4201/usd
Manu Sporny: Do we want something like this:
http://purl.org/currencies/usd
David I. Lehn: 4217?
Manu Sporny: Do we want something like this:
http://purl.org/currency/usd
http://purl.org/currency/usd
David I. Lehn: http://purl.org/currency/iso4217/usd
Manu Sporny: i'd prefer simpler, easier to read (no iso4217)
Dave Longley: We might be overthinking this - all ISO4217 codes
are 3 characters long... let's keep it simple for now. [scribe
assist by Manu Sporny]
Dave Longley: If we needed to in the future, we could add it.
[scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
[discussion over the naming for the URL for currencies
(particularly ISO currencies for now)]
PROPOSAL: Create a /currency path off of the http;//purl.org/
domain for mapping ISO currency codes to URLs. Use those URLs in
PaySwarm to identify fiat currencies.
Manu Sporny: +1
Jeff Sayre: +1
Dave Longley: +1
David I. Lehn: +1
Fabio Barone: +1
RESOLUTION: Create a /currency path off of the http://purl.org/
domain for mapping ISO currency codes to URLs. Use those URLs in
PaySwarm to identify fiat currencies.
Topic: Currency mints and currency creation
Manu Sporny: we use the term "currency mint" pretty loosely,
when we think about "mint" we think about the actual creation of
amounts of a currency, when we say "mint" we mean you can create
units of a currency like heads of lettuce, sheep, work hours,
whatever
Manu Sporny: so how exactly do these currency mints create (or
enable the creation of) currencies
Manu Sporny: if a currency mint simply publishes an exchange
rate
USD, then payswarm authorities can use a service to get that
exchange table and perform the currencytransformation/creat ion
itself
Manu Sporny: the payswarm authority could hit multiple currency
mints to get exchange rates to do the appropriate transformations
to create the type of currency it needs
Manu Sporny: so when someone wants to put money into a payswarm
account the authority could get the exchange rates and do the
actual currency creation by converting from say, USD.
Manu Sporny: it gets difficult when the currency becomes very
local and doesn't have these kinds of exchange rates
Manu Sporny: like if you can't exchange farm work hours for USD,
but only for local produce, etc.
Manu Sporny: so we have to support currency creation outside of
the payswarm system
Manu Sporny: so one way is to create an API that allows the
currency to be created elsewhere and reported back to the
authority
Manu Sporny: for example, someone could go to a payswarm
authority to try to deposit their egg share points into their
account
Manu Sporny: and the authority checks for an exchange rate but
there isn't one
Manu Sporny: so it redirects them to a website for the currency
mint
Manu Sporny: and that site shows the person a webpage that lets
them enter their egg share information to get authorization
Manu Sporny: to send their egg shares to the payswarm authority
Manu Sporny: the site then authorizes the person and sends the
amount to the payswarm authority which adds the information to
their payswarm account
Dave Longley: Quick comment on this - when a payswarm authority
uses the currency exchange rate, that's the easiest approach.
[scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Dave Longley: In that case, we don't have to deal w/
decentralized failures. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Dave Longley: In the other case, it could be that a system fails
while depositing or transacting w/ the PaySwarm Authority
fails... in that case, it would be difficult to solve the issue -
the issues are more complex than the exchange rate case. [scribe
assist by Manu Sporny]
Dave Longley: The case where you want to have truly localized
currencies - we want to support that ... which is the harder
case. We need to create good software for those folks to help
them make this easier. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Dave Longley: We should definitely support the exchange rate
case - it's easier... would increase the adoption rate for their
currencies... makes things easier for them. It promotes the
efficacy of the PaySwarm Authority in moving money around.
[scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Manu Sporny: the question i have is: have we missed any
particular way of creating currencies that don't map to either of
these approaches?
Manu Sporny: are we covering everything?
Fabio Barone: most alt curr creation happens at the moment of
transaction
Dave Longley: It should be fairly obvious that we have covered
everything - the only way you create currencies is via a
centralized mint. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Fabio Barone: mutual credit systems
Dave Longley: I think we've covered any possible use case... if
not, there is a way to extend the system (via external currency
mints). [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Fabio Barone: I offer a service, I am credited a certain amount,
and the other party is debited the same amount
Fabio Barone: ok
Fabio Barone: many alternative currency systems do not have a
thing like a mint; of these sorts of local currency systems,
there's a way where if i offer a service to someone one party
will be credited 2 hours and i'll be debited 2 hours, and this
happens at the time of transaction, over the whole system the
total amount is zero
Fabio Barone: it's just about shifting around hours, or a
currency with a name, etc.
Fabio Barone: timebanks also work like this, "i will work for
you for 2 hours" and that debits 2 hours from the other party
Manu Sporny: i think the system can handle timebanking, but the
external system will have to handle crediting and debiting
differently
Manu Sporny: i'm wondering if this is more like a contract and
not a currency
Manu Sporny: does everyone "have a currency mint" under this
scenario (for timebanks)?
Manu Sporny: everyone has their own time
Fabio Barone: this isn't really correct, it is a contract but
it's a social contract, there are different flavors
Fabio Barone: standard timebanks consider everyone's time the
same
Manu Sporny: since everyone's time is worth the same, you just
need to make sure people aren't cheating the system
Manu Sporny: maybe having a centralized timebank currency mint
would work fine, it just works on the honor system
Manu Sporny: the currency mint might just always grant you hours
upon request
Fabio Barone: these systems often don't work over time
Fabio Barone: particularly converting to traditional currencies
Fabio Barone: there may not be that great of a need for making
these currencies work with the payswarm system
Manu Sporny: payswarm has the concept of listing assets and
things ... so it takes care of that
Manu Sporny: so once the currency (worked hours) is in the
payswarm system
Manu Sporny: you could acquire whatever you wanted via payswarm
listings, assets
Manu Sporny: and make purchases directly with your work hours
Manu Sporny: the only concern is with the currency mint, which
is the thing that says its ok to create a currency
Manu Sporny: at some point though, we have to say that we can't
necessarily get every one of these systems into payswarm itself,
it has to be an external system
Manu Sporny: this also allows for flexibility
Dave Longley: It sounds like the way these timebank things could
work is that someone else in the community could promise you a
number of hours. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Dave Longley: If we're looking at this in the way of a currency
mint - the time bank has a currency mint - the time bank currency
mint has accounts that keep track of who has promised other
people hours. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Dave Longley: They could say that they could take 2 hours of
their time from their time bank and spend them on things that are
external to that timebank system. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Dave Longley: So you could use those hours to buy assets on
PaySwarm... so they could do the transacting of assets through
the payswarm system... but the system that creates the hours and
tracks them is the time bank currency mint. It seems like that
could be the best way to go.. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Dave Longley: It's a bit different from how these other systems
work... if you pay with a credit card, your credit card company
is giving you credit. Time bank works kind of like that - except
that it's another member in the community that is giving you the
currency (the unit of time) [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Manu Sporny: that seems like how we'd go about solving the
problem, we're at the top of the hour, so we'll push those other
two issues to the next meeting
Manu Sporny: anything else?
Manu Sporny: ok, thank you everyone
-- manu
--
Manu Sporny (skype: msporny, twitter: manusporny)
President/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc.
blog: PaySwarm Website for Developers Launched
http://digitalbazaar.com/2012/02/22/new-payswarm-alpha/
Received on Tuesday, 26 June 2012 21:31:18 UTC