Re: Should we complete the WebID spec?

On 11/3/23 1:36 PM, Melvin Carvalho wrote:
>
>
> pá 3. 11. 2023 v 18:33 odesílatel Kingsley Idehen 
> <kidehen@openlinksw.com> napsal:
>
>
>     On 11/3/23 1:26 PM, Melvin Carvalho wrote:
>>
>>
>>     pá 3. 11. 2023 v 18:00 odesílatel Kingsley Idehen
>>     <kidehen@openlinksw.com> napsal:
>>
>>
>>         On 11/3/23 9:47 AM, Melvin Carvalho wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>         pá 3. 11. 2023 v 14:12 odesílatel Kingsley Idehen
>>>         <kidehen@openlinksw.com> napsal:
>>>
>>>
>>>             On 11/2/23 9:48 PM, Melvin Carvalho wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>             pá 3. 11. 2023 v 1:09 odesílatel Kingsley Idehen
>>>>             <kidehen@openlinksw.com> napsal:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                 On 11/2/23 5:53 PM, Melvin Carvalho wrote:
>>>>                 > 2. urn scheme for webids: urn:webid
>>>>
>>>>                 What's that, and why?
>>>>
>>>>                 A WebID has always been an HTTP based URI used to
>>>>                 name an Agent.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>             Yes indeed.  But not every authentication process gives
>>>>             a URI (sadly).  Some will give a string of characters
>>>>             that denote an Agent, which need to be turned into a URI.
>>>
>>>             I didn't see our focus right now being on solving for
>>>             authentication protocols and URI combinations. I believe
>>>             the primary objective is to propel WebID forward by
>>>             delineating its essence and its potential usage,
>>>             especially within the context of Solid.
>>>
>>>             The shift from understanding WebID as an HTTP URI that
>>>             identifies an Agent to something else doesn't align with
>>>             the aforementioned goal.
>>>
>>>             Presently, we utilize the term NetID for a URI that
>>>             identifies an Agent, grounded on the reality that we
>>>             have authentication services accommodating a range of
>>>             schemes right from the outset.
>>>
>>>             The discourse around WebID and Solid Lite seems to
>>>             diverge slightly from the issues pertinent to a NetID.
>>>             Furthermore, with billions of pages on the Web currently
>>>             utilizing HTTP URIs to identify Agents, it seems prudent
>>>             to harness this established practice with the existing
>>>             WebID definition.
>>>
>>>             Isn't the ultimate aim to employ HTML profile documents,
>>>             encompassing RDF structured data islands (i.e., metadata
>>>             articulated through various RDF notations), via a more
>>>             streamlined derivative of Solid?
>>>
>>>
>>>         Kingsley, you are completely correct.  I agree with everything.
>>>
>>>         I'm just outlining the things I would like to complete to
>>>         make a working system, bearing in mind that this comunity
>>>         group may close.
>>>
>>>         The problem of turning a string into a URI post
>>>         authentication, is something I'll need to do.
>>>
>>>         Turning:  "userid" into urn: <something> : userid is a quick
>>>         hack. Whether it's webid or netid, the software doesnt care,
>>>         so long as it's consistent.
>>>
>>>         It would be in this case something like an "indirect
>>>         identifier" as described in awww.  Example:
>>>
>>>         "Today 10 Downing Street said that ..."
>>>
>>>         Of course the building 10 Downing Street didnt say
>>>         anything.  It's an incorrect sentence.  But the consumers of
>>>         the sentence understand it well enough.
>>
>>
>>         You handle that using blank nodes, which is basically the
>>         default in JSON or JSON-LD without explicitly indicating an
>>         object id. Bascially, your example is ground zero for JSON
>>         and JSON-LD where both denote subjects using indefinite
>>         pronouns (a/k/a blank nodes).
>>
>>>
>>>         Example:  What is a WebID URN?  A webid URN is a web
>>>         identifier that is a URI but where the software was unable
>>>         to locat an HTTP URI but wishes to store the authenticated
>>>         username as a URI.
>>>
>>>         I need to get something working in any case, in order to
>>>         have a pluggable auth system.
>>
>>
>>         My point is that you are swimming against the current if you
>>         want to venture down this path. More importantly, it cannot
>>         be named WebID -- since that's a massive change from the
>>         original definition.
>>
>>
>>     Not sure I agree on this, but I'll back burner it for now, given
>>     the push back.
>>
>>     Let me give some context:
>>
>>     There are two things, one is a string as a name "kidehen" the
>>     other is a universal name aka a urn which is also a URI
>>
>>     So one issue with the urn spec is:
>>
>>     I'd like to just say:
>>
>>     urn:kidehen
>>
>>     Problem solved.
>>
>>     Unfortunately this brakes the URN spec, because for some strange
>>     reason it's not allowed, you have to subclass it:
>>
>>     so it has to be:
>>
>>     urn:<something>:kidehen
>>
>>     And whatever goes in there needs to be consistent.  This is
>>     simply a constraint imposed by RFC8141.  I wish it wasnt there,
>>     then this would not be an issue, but I need to put in something
>>     logical to pass the Test of Independent Invention (TOII).
>>
>>     I am unsure I agree with your assessment on a webid namespace,
>>     but I'll give it more thought.  In any case it will likely be an
>>     internal software matter, at this point.
>
>
>     I believe its an internal software matter (i.e., implementation
>     detail) that shouldn't have any bearing on:
>
>     1. The existing WebID definition
>     2. Authentication Protocols that operate of credentials expressed
>     in a WebID Profile Document.
>
>
> Well namespaces have to be non colliding thanks to the IETF.  So you 
> should tell them if you're going to use them. I dont believe that you 
> can make the argument that urn:webid is confused with http webids.


I am only making one fundamental point.

A WebID is an HTTP based URI that names an Agent.  Attempting to change 
that doesn't help the cause in anyway.


>
> If you feel that strongly that's not a battle I want to pick right 
> now.  We can perhaps talk about it privately another time, unless I've 
> been unclear.
>

I don't understand why the definition of WebID is now cause for concern. 
It has nothing to do with the pursuit of a Solid Lite spec, or anything 
else in this Read-Write Web realm -- IMHO.


-- 
Regards,

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Received on Friday, 3 November 2023 20:02:45 UTC