W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-webid@w3.org > May 2014

Re: Aligning WebID with U2F. Was: UI for client cert selection

From: Nick Jennings <nick@silverbucket.net>
Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 14:45:57 +0200
Message-ID: <CAJL4WtYThJsDXf1+YXsPugSNW60Snrbmvv=DT+yBzKn9ULp=YQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com>
Cc: public-webid <public-webid@w3.org>
Excuse me if I'm missing something, but isn't this more an issue of what
our expectations are from previous cookie usage, rather than an actual
problem? If we use a single browser profile per-cert, then it makes sense
that you will always be logged in (and that's better than being logged out
after a certain amount of time, IMO). If you want to be anonymous, or log
in with a different account, use a different profile.

The use-cases I can think of, would be:
1. You've lost your laptop and want to invalidate all your certs.
2. You had to recreate your certs and want to migrate from one cert to
another so you don't loose your user account.

Both of these cases I don't think would be addressed with 'logout' anyway.

But again, maybe I'm just missing something. My experience with WebID is
very limited so far.
-Nick



On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 2:32 PM, Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com>wrote:

>  On 5/5/14 7:46 AM, Kingsley Idehen wrote:
>
> On 5/5/14 2:05 AM, Anders Rundgren wrote:
>
> On 2014-05-04 23:36, Kingsley Idehen wrote:
>
>  > On 5/3/14 11:13 PM, Anders Rundgren wrote:
>
>  >> On 2014-05-03 20:51, Tim Berners-Lee wrote:
>
>  >>> > On 2014-05 -03, at 10:45, Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  >>>> >> We can call it whatever we like, the user-experience offered by WebID as featured>>>> >> on http://cimba.co web doesn't meet reasonable user expectations [..]
>
>  >>> > So imagine the browser was going to be changed to make that better.>>> >>>> > People seem to widely agree that the client-side cert UI is bad on browsers>>> > Can we at least do a thought experiment to be in a world where it is fixed -- what would that look like?>>> > Maybe things like:->>> >>>> > - Allowing the user to click a check box on "Always use this persona (client-side cert) with this web site (domain)">>> > - Allowing a preferences access to manage the persona/website allocation matrix>>> > - Allow more screen space for selecting those certs>>> > - Allow a user to label, color, and suppress certs in the list>>> > - By default, not including expired certs in the list>>> > - Tracking which persona is in use on this website (only when a user has more than one) in the URL bar>>> >>>> > and so on.  Maybe is someone sketched the UI then a browser code could be persuaded to do it.>>> > It is necessary for existing client side cert sites anyway, and would maybe make the cimba.co experience >>> > quite reasonable.
>
>  >> Hi Tim,>>>> The hurdles aren't limited to the UI.  The following bug-report for Android>> http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=38393>> shows that the server-initiated filtering feature that WebID-TLS presumes is set to "WorkingAsIntended" although it is not even implemented.>>>> In the several EU states X.509 client authentication is used quite extensively for on-line banking and e-government services.>> These systems typically rely on proprietary browser plugins rather than using HTTPS Client Cert Auth.>> Since plugins are to be "outlawed" by the browser vendors, they are now forced rewriting their systems to invoke local (native) applications to handle the certificate authentication.>> I.e. they are effectively **giving up on the web** for the authentication part!>>>> Due to this and a bunch of other issues related to HTTPS Client Cert Auth, I believe that we need a somewhat bigger "patch" to actually get anywhere.>>>> FWIW, I hereby submit a concept and sample implementation which I believe could be a suitable replacement both for the TLS-solution in WebID-TLS as well as for the proprietary systems used in the EU:>> http://webpki.org/papers/PKI/webauth.pdf>>>> I encourage other developers in this space to do the same.>> The W3C may then run a "beauty contest" and select a concept for standardization :-)>>>> Cheers>> AndersR>>>>
>
>  > Anders,>> Have you looked at how Safari works? The fact that it now uses a timeout to end TLS sessions, that are lingering or deemed "potentially inactive" ? Have you looked at this UX experience on iOS?>> Just asking as I've looked an the Android and your sketch, but don't sense evaluation of iOS.>> Apple is pretty good at UX. Sometimes they do enough just to be better than the competition, so I do tend to look at them first in regards to UX matters, ditto as the place to trigger changes that ultimately percolate to competitors etc..>
>
>  Kingsley,
> I have not looked into Apple's dealing with TLS sessions or the certificate selection UI, because I don't have to.
>
> The logic behind this somewhat quirky position is that I in similarity to Google, Microsoft, Paypal, ARM, RSA, and most of the EU banks have **rejected** the idea of using HTTPS Client Certificate Authentication as the foundation for strong consumer authentication.  The motives probably vary, but I think my write-up contains the primary considerations.
>
>
> I looked up your write up prior to replying. Here are your fundamental
> issues:
>
>
> • TLS lacks a logout mechanism -- not so on iOS or when using Safari
> (which uses a timeout)
>
>
> To verify my point, you can try our WebID verifier [1] using Safari and/or
> iOS. Note, I've tried yours which basically mandates G+ identity.
>
> Initially, simply opt to "Cancel" when the TLS CCA UI is presented. Under
> normal circumstances, you will not be able to re-use this page without
> starting a new TLS session, which is achieved by quitting and restarting
> your browser. In the case of Safari, you simply wait a little, and repeat
> en route to a TLS CCA challenge.
>
> Not being able to configure the timeout (on Mac OS X or iOS) is the only
> problem I have with the current implementation by Apple.
>
>
> Links:
>
> [1] http://id.myopenlink.net/ods/webid_demo.html -- my example which have
> varying behavior across browsers (e.g., Chrome on Mac OS X or Android will
> require a restart, but no so when using Safari on Mac OS X or iOS)
>
> [2] https://mobilepki.org/webauth/ -- your example
>
> --
>
> Regards,
>
> Kingsley Idehen	
> Founder & CEO
> OpenLink Software
> Company Web: http://www.openlinksw.com
> Personal Weblog: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen
> Twitter Profile: https://twitter.com/kidehen
> Google+ Profile: https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about
> LinkedIn Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen
>
>
>
>
Received on Monday, 5 May 2014 12:46:56 UTC

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