W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-webid@w3.org > October 2012

Re: privacy definitions -- was: WebID questions

From: Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 14:14:36 +0200
Cc: Carvalho Melvin <melvincarvalho@gmail.com>, "public-privacy list" <public-privacy@w3.org>, public-webid@w3.org
Message-Id: <5E8D6F25-39F3-440E-A469-405972F1F68E@bblfish.net>
To: Ben Laurie <benl@google.com>

On 16 Oct 2012, at 14:06, Ben Laurie <benl@google.com> wrote:

> On 16 October 2012 13:00, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 1 October 2012 15:36, Ben Laurie <benl@google.com> wrote:
>>> On 1 October 2012 14:07, Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net> wrote:
>>>> On 1 Oct 2012, at 14:35, Ben Laurie <benl@google.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 1 October 2012 13:20, Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 1 Oct 2012, at 13:43, Ben Laurie <benl@google.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 30 September 2012 20:22, Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 30 Sep 2012, at 20:46, Ben Laurie <benl@google.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 30 September 2012 10:30, Henry Story <henry.story@bblfish.net>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 29 Sep 2012, at 19:50, Ben Laurie <benl@google.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 28 September 2012 15:26, Jonas Hogberg K.O
>>>>>>>>>>> <jonas.k.o.hogberg@ericsson.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> At
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://blogs.kuppingercole.com/kearns/2012/09/25/in-search-of-privacy/?goback=.gde_3480266_member_168314336,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dave Kearns writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>> There is indeed a lot of confusion about the subject, but there
>>>>>>>>>>>> are two key
>>>>>>>>>>>> phrases to remember when talking about privacy:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Privacy is not anonymity
>>>>>>>>>>>> Privacy is not secrecy
>>>>>>>>>>> Quoting those out of context is not particularly helpful. But for
>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>> on why anonymity is important for privacy...
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.links.org/?p=123
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.links.org/?p=124
>>>>>>>>>> Looking at those two, can we agree that we agree that anonymity
>>>>>>>>>> should be the default?
>>>>>>>>>> I believe as you do that when I go to a web site the default
>>>>>>>>>> should be that I not be
>>>>>>>>>> identified, and not be tracked. I can choose later to be tracked
>>>>>>>>>> or identified for
>>>>>>>>>> that site for a given amount of time or until I change my mind,
>>>>>>>>>> but the default should
>>>>>>>>>> be anonymity.
>>>>>>>>>> ( Within limits of logic of course. If I tell anonymous Y
>>>>>>>>>> something P
>>>>>>>>>> which has consequence Q, and some other anonymous Z does something
>>>>>>>>>> with Q that would have
>>>>>>>>>> been nearly impossible to know had they not known P, then I could
>>>>>>>>>> conclude within
>>>>>>>>>> a certain probability that  Y == Z )
>>>>>>>>>> The web provides this. Some browsers provide it better than
>>>>>>>>>> others, but really
>>>>>>>>>> this is up to them. It is not perfect: ip addresses can be tracked
>>>>>>>>>> and dns lookups
>>>>>>>>>> can be tracked. But the web is not reliant on those. It could be
>>>>>>>>>> deployed just as well
>>>>>>>>>> on top of Tor. Had people had better memories, we could have had
>>>>>>>>>> .onion urls plastered
>>>>>>>>>> on bus stops since the beginning.
>>>>>>>>>> Anonymity is important for many reasons. Among which is that it
>>>>>>>>>> helps create a trusted
>>>>>>>>>> public sphere. It increases my trust in the information I read if
>>>>>>>>>> I know that the publisher
>>>>>>>>>> publishes that information that can be read by anonymous readers.
>>>>>>>>>> Knowing that the publisher
>>>>>>>>>> cannot tell who is reading what he is publishing is a very strong
>>>>>>>>>> guarantee that he
>>>>>>>>>> is not adapting his message to different groups. Oddly enough
>>>>>>>>>> anonymity has an important role
>>>>>>>>>> therefore in public discussion.
>>>>>>>>>> So do we agree here? I think we do.
>>>>>>>>> So far.
>>>>>>>> ok. So let's see if we can agree further, from here :-)
>>>>>>>> There are a number of identification options available.
>>>>>>>> Let me list some of them:
>>>>>>>> - anonymous ( 0 identification )
>>>>>>>> - cookies   ( site bound )
>>>>>>>> - TLS-Origin-Bound-Certificates ( unforgeable cookies )
>>>>>>>> - Self-Signed certificates with an .onion WebID
>>>>>>>>      ( I promised Appelbaum to work on that. This gives you an
>>>>>>>> identity, but nobody knows
>>>>>>>>        where you or your server are located )
>>>>>>>> - Self-Signed certificates with a http(s) WebID
>>>>>>>> - CA Signed Certificates
>>>>>>>> - DNSSEC Signed Certificates
>>>>>>>> - ...?
>>>>>>>> We agree that anonymous should be the default.
>>>>>>>> I think we can agree as a matter of simple fact that none of the
>>>>>>>> browsers show
>>>>>>>> you which of those modes you are in when looking at a web page. You
>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>> as a user therefore tell if you are anonymous or not. You cannot
>>>>>>>> therefore tell
>>>>>>>> if the page you are looking at has been tweaked for you or if it
>>>>>>>> would appear
>>>>>>>> differently to someone else in the same mode as you. You cannot tell
>>>>>>>> if the
>>>>>>>> agent on the other side can tie you to a browsing history or not.
>>>>>>>> Well let me put this in a more nuanced way: you can tell the above
>>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>>> side-effects - say if they should you your profile on a google+ page
>>>>>>>> with edit mode
>>>>>>>> allowed - but that is up to the server to show you that. We both
>>>>>>>> want it to be
>>>>>>>> up to the user. We don't want it to be up to the user in some
>>>>>>>> complicated conf file
>>>>>>>> hidden away somewhere. We both want it to be in your face,
>>>>>>>> transparent. I should
>>>>>>>> in an eyeblink be able to tell if I am anonymous or not, and I
>>>>>>>> should be able
>>>>>>>> to switch from one mode to the next if and when I want to in a
>>>>>>>> simple easy gesture.
>>>>>>>> Just as in real life when we put on a mask we know that we are
>>>>>>>> wearing the mask,
>>>>>>>> so on the web we want to know what mask we are wearing at all times.
>>>>>>>> These are the improvements I have been fighting ( not alone ) to get
>>>>>>>> browsers to
>>>>>>>> implement. Are we fighting on the same side here?
>>>>>>> I agree that it is desirable to know how your browser is identifying
>>>>>>> you and to be able to switch between users. So, I guess Chrome would
>>>>>>> claim that the facility to have multiple users provides this. Do you
>>>>>>> disagree?
>>>>>> I looked up multiple Users and found this:
>>>>>> http://support.google.com/chrome/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=2364824
>>>>>> I had not seen this before.
>>>>>> So it seems to work for certificates. I created a new user Tester, and
>>>>>> noticed the following as that Tester:
>>>>>> 0. It did not have any of my bookmarks ( I suppose that's useful,
>>>>>> cause your
>>>>>>  bookmarks could identify you )
>>>>>> 1. When I went to Google+ it did not know I was
>>>>>> 2. Having signed in to https://my-profile.eu/ as the old user, I tried
>>>>>> as the
>>>>>>   new user Tester, and had to select a certificate again. Good.
>>>>>> So that seems like one way to separate one's personalities. I'd still
>>>>>> like to
>>>>>> have the url bar show me for each tab:
>>>>>> [anonymous] when I am not logged in
>>>>>> [cookie] when I am tracked on that site
>>>>>> [henry story] for a local site identity
>>>>>> [bblfish@home] when I am using a certificate
>>>>>> With the option of logging out from that site (ie checking x ->
>>>>>> anonymous ). Because
>>>>>> currently I could forget that I had chosen a certificate on a site,
>>>>>> and it
>>>>>> would continue sending it. Or I could mistakenly choose a certificate
>>>>>> as one user,
>>>>>> and then decide that was the wrong user for that persona, and not be
>>>>>> able to choose
>>>>>> the certificate again, without closing my browser completely. That
>>>>>> would allow, on
>>>>>> browser startup, the browser to remember the last identity choice for
>>>>>> a site. Without
>>>>>> logout capability that is not possible, because then it would be
>>>>>> impossible to repair
>>>>>> an identity mistake without creating a new user. (And it makes testing
>>>>>> tedious).
>>>>>> Currently when I close my browser, on restart the servers ask me for
>>>>>> my certificate again.
>>>>>> So it looks like this is going generally in the right direction. It
>>>>>> still does not provide
>>>>>> the transparency we are looking for at the UI level above. But thanks
>>>>>> for pointing this out.
>>>>>> So I think we agree that what is missing is the transparency at the UI
>>>>>> level of which identity
>>>>>> one is using at each site. That is what I was hoping the following bug
>>>>>> report would achieve.
>>>>>> http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=29784
>>>>>> So perhaps by putting this forward under the term transparency, that
>>>>>> would help that bug report
>>>>>> progress, since otherwise they could thing that the issue had already
>>>>>> been completely solved.
>>>>>> So that's what I make of that. But have I missed something? Or do we
>>>>>> agree there too?
>>>>> I don't think so
>>>>> . As I said, I think that Chrome would claim that the
>>>>> users facility provides everything you need - if you want to know
>>>>> which cert you're using, then have a user per cert. As for cookies and
>>>>> "local site identities", this would require information the browser
>>>>> does not currently have, so I think you would first have to explain
>>>>> how it is going to get that information.
>>>> Well the browser knows when it sends a cookie. So showing a [cookie]
>>>> icon would be easy there. When you are in anonymous mode it does not
>>>> send a cookie. (perhaps a no-cookie/cert icon - would be more precise)
>>>> As for per site identity that is what the Mozilla folks were working
>>>> with Aza Raskin
>>>> http://www.azarask.in/blog/post/identity-in-the-browser-firefox/
>>>> But until a standard is agree to there, one could already have
>>>> a [cookie] icon...
>>> Sure, but it would be pretty pointless: I just checked and every
>>> single tab I have open has some cookies associated.
>> Re cookies: I thought it was interesting new the launch of
>> http://data.gov.uk/
>> When you first load the site they give you an option of accepting cookies or
>> not.
>> If you say yes, you get a little "thank you", and an optional explanation of
>> what that means.
>> It's interesting to see a site that takes privacy seriously, is today, in
>> the minority.
> Lots of sites do it now, actually - its a legal requirement.

yes, I saw a few of those recently. 

It's a pitty they we end up pushing the sites to do so much work, when the 
browsers could make the same visible and clear from the chrome, in a way 
that the user would not need to trust the web site owner to do it correctly. 
Currently of course only nice web sites will tell users, all the others 

>>>>> For anonymous, Chrome already has an anonymous mode (though note that
>>>>> you don't really stay anonymous for long once you enter it, since it
>>>>> must still use cookies or the 'net stops working - also bookmarks are
>>>>> still available in anon mode).
>>>> As above the browser knows when it sends cookies: and so it can show
>>>> the user that it is doing that.
>>>>> I believe that Chrome experimented with per-tab personas and found
>>>>> that it was a terrible user experience, btw.
>>>> It does not look that bad in Aza Raskin's proposal, and the Account
>>>> Manager work at Mozilla
>>>> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Labs/Weave/Identity/Account_Manager
>>>> My guess is that the project to create the multiple user work
>>>> at Chrome trumped the development of good identity transparency
>>>> solutions. That often happens in engineering: one good idea
>>>> hides another one for a while.
>>> Or, as I said, it turns out to not work very well. That happens even
>>> more often, and apparently has happened in this case. Saying it
>>> doesn't look that bad to you doesn't change it!
>>>> In any case there is a lack of transparency in the multiple user
>>>> set up that still needs to be rectified. How that is done I'll leave
>>>> to UI experts. But I'll recognise a good solution whatever form it
>>>> takes.
>>>> Now here with WebID we are assuming such a solution will be found
>>>> by one of the browser vendors in good time, and then adopted by the
>>>> others. The current interface  we can agree is not good enough for
>>>> sure, but the problems we are trying to  solve are  important enough
>>>> that we can work with the current limitations of browser.
>>> Who is the "we" that can agree it? And why is it not good enough? You
>>> have not explained that at all.
>>>> That leaves us with the importance of cross site identity. I think
>>>> I have a very powerful argument in favour of its importance. It is
>>>> important for a certain kind of privacy to be possible: that between
>>>> two people or groups of people wishing to exchange documents that
>>>> should only be visible to certain people and no others. This is the
>>>> case when someone wishes to discuss something with a doctor, or when
>>>> someone wishes to publish photos of people at a party without making
>>>> it fully public, and in many many other circumstances.  It is important
>>>> for creating a distributed social network, which I will call the
>>>> Social Web.  The Web and the internet have always been about
>>>> distribution
>>>> and decentralisation of information. We want to do that using WebID in
>>>> a manner that increases privacy. I will be working on showing how
>>>> this can be done on the Web, and on the Web running over Tor.
>>>> Henry
>>>> Social Web Architect
>>>> http://bblfish.net/

Social Web Architect

Received on Tuesday, 16 October 2012 12:15:22 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Friday, 17 January 2020 19:05:43 UTC