Re: telconf 07-11-2012 : what is webid

On 11/15/12 4:31 PM, Alexandre Bertails wrote:
> On 11/15/2012 12:39 PM, Kingsley Idehen wrote:
>> On 11/15/12 12:14 PM, Andrei SAMBRA wrote:
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 12:02 PM, Kingsley Idehen
>>> <kidehen@openlinksw.com <mailto:kidehen@openlinksw.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     On 11/15/12 11:40 AM, Andrei SAMBRA wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         Restricting ourselves to http, https URLs does make for a
>>>>         clearer spec, without
>>>>         creating interoperability issues. I can see that ftp and ftps
>>>>         would also work, but
>>>>         we would certainly have a more testable system if we limited
>>>>         ourselves at first.
>>>>
>>>>     +1
>>>>     We should remember that WebID is a _W3C_ group, not an IETF one.
>>>     So you infer that URIs belong to IETF and URLs to the W3C? At the
>>>     same time you assume this is architecture with real
>>>     interoperability in mind.
>>>
>>>     You are making an important point here, quite profound. I really
>>>     need to know if this is the view shared by others.
>>>
>>>     The most powerful virtue of the Web is its interoperability. That
>>>     virtue is inextricably linked to URI abstraction.
>>>
>>>
>>> No, my point is that WebID URIs use HTTP(S) schemes. The point is to
>>> avoid ftp:// WebIDs (or any other scheme) in order to simplify the 
>>> spec.
>>>
>>> Andrei
>>>
>>
>> Abstraction != Difficult.  Please understand that the principle in play
>> re. AWWW is "deceptively simple" which is a function of good
>> abstraction. URI abstraction is a fine example of said principle. This
>> is what makes the Web work.
>
> You're confusing "difficult" and "complex".

I am not.

>
> By being too abstract and general, you artificially increase the
> complexity of WebID by implicitly asking support for many different
> implementations.

Wrong!

>
> By narrowing-down the definition to very precise concepts, you define
> the minimal set of expectations that the system must support.

You can achieve that without compromising the AWWW.

>
> Also, examples are not acceptable as definitions, because they don't
> say anything about expectations. 

And when did I infer to you that an example is a definition?

> You need to define the invariants of
> the system.

What are the invariants of the World Wide Web? The very system used by 
the entire world.

>
> That was the concern of the people who set the definition for WebID at
> TPAC.

Not wanting to go backwards, instead of forwards. The conclusion at TPAC 
were simply wrong albeit well intended.

> I don't understand why people are loosing time with changing the
> definition.

Because any definition of WebID that includes specific references to 
hash URIs and Turtle is broken. Simple as that.


Kingsley
>
> Alexandre.
>
>>
>> For WebID based authentication to work it doesn't need to compromise the
>> virtues of URIs. Just use simple examples to make matters clearer.
>>
>> The solution to the problem is that you don't introduce technology via a
>> technical spec. It's conventionally achieved as follows:
>>
>> 1. conceptual guide and overview
>> 2. technical specs
>> 3. implementation guides and examples -- this is where you can be
>> specific about URLs, Turtle docs etc.. by using them in all the 
>> examples.
>>
>> When you start from #2 you are vulnerable to:
>>
>> 1. political distractions -- e.g., format (as opposed to semantics)
>> oriented warfare
>> 2. FUD -- when the abstract nature isn't obvious those threatened will
>> come at you with FUD.
>>
>> We don't need to compromise the essence of the Web for all of this to 
>> work.
>>
>> Remember, HTML wasn't prescribed to the world en route to WWW bootstrap,
>> the "view source" pattern from early browsers enabled folks to cut and
>> paste what was behind the page (which could have been anything) into new
>> spaces en route to understanding the implications of fusing Hypertext
>> and TCP/IP.
>>
>> Standards are retrsopective things, they are the result of coalescing
>> around what works, so the sequence is always:
>>
>> 1. de facto standard -- common practice
>> 3. industry standard -- accepted best practice.
>>
>>
>> Kingsley
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Kingsley Idehen
>> Founder & CEO
>> OpenLink Software
>> Company Web:http://www.openlinksw.com
>> Personal Weblog:http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen
>> Twitter/Identi.ca handle: @kidehen
>> Google+ Profile:https://plus.google.com/112399767740508618350/about
>> LinkedIn Profile:http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>


-- 

Regards,

Kingsley Idehen 
Founder & CEO
OpenLink Software
Company Web: http://www.openlinksw.com
Personal Weblog: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen
Twitter/Identi.ca handle: @kidehen
Google+ Profile: https://plus.google.com/112399767740508618350/about
LinkedIn Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen