- From: Arthur Barstow <art.barstow@nokia.com>
- Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 12:17:23 -0500
- To: "public-webevents@w3.org" <public-webevents@w3.org>
The draft minutes from the March 6 voice conference are available at the
following and copied below:
http://www.w3.org/2012/03/06-webevents-minutes.html
WG Members - if you have any comments, corrections, etc., please send
them to the public-webevents mail list before March 13. In the absence
of any changes, these minutes will be considered approved.
-AB
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
Web Events WG Voice Conference
06 Mar 2012
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2012JanMar/0023.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2012/03/06-webevents-irc
Attendees
Present
Art_Barstow, Cathy_Chan, Doug_Schepers, Matt_Brubeck,
Scott_Gonzalez
Regrets
Chair
Art
Scribe
Art
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Tweak Agenda
2. [6]Announcements
3. [7]Touch Events and MSPointer Events
4. [8]Update on Touch Events PAG
5. [9]AoB
* [10]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<scribe> ScribeNick: ArtB
<scribe> Scribe: Art
Date: 06 March 2012
Tweak Agenda
AB: I posted a draft agenda yesterday
[11]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2012JanMar/
0023.html. After that, Scott Gonzαlez posted a link to some work he
has done and I'd like to add that to the agenda.
... any objections to adding that topic?
[11] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2012JanMar/0023.html.
DS: that would be great
AB: ok, so we'll do that and add it right after Annoucements
... any other change requests for the agenda?
Announcements
AB: any short announcements for today?
MB: I will represent Mozilla in the PAG
AB: that's excellent Matt
Touch Events and MSPointer Events
AB: yesterday, Scott mentioned the work he has been doing comparing
our Touch Events with MSPointer Events
[12]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2012JanMar/
0024.html.
[12] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2012JanMar/0024.html.
SG: I'm working on normalizing pointer events in jQuery
one of the things I noticed is the divergence in touch events
My doc compares the two approaches
includes the pros and cons
I haven't found anyone using MSPointer
I list the technical diffs
both support multiple points
I assume there are UCs for knowing if>1 touch occurs at the same
time
If anyone knows of some UCs for this, it would be good to know
Both systems allow getting a list of the touches
have to start from an event object in both cases
If only care about 1 touch at a time, MSPointer is a bit easier
With Touches, need to go to the list so a bit cumbersome
DS: would you please distinguish these two as Webkit versus IE
models?
SG: yes, I can do that
... in webkit have the touch arrays
and from there can get the touch point data
In IE model, the data is directly on the Event
because the data is always for a specific pointer
In IE will get 2 events: 1 for the first finger and a second event
for the 2nd touch
SG: WK model has no concept of hovering
at least not built in
MB: in the v2 spec, we added enter and leave events
SG: the IE model does support hovering
IE normalizes all pointer events into a MSPointer event
so they do have a concept of hover
a bit cumbersome though with touch, especially with a stylus
Don't have full hover but that's probably a h/w limitation
DS: yes, I agree that's probably a hardware limitation
SG: MSPointer does have some future proofing
i.e. it is easy to add new pointer devices
currently supports pen, stylus, mouse and such but can add new
devices
Need to document more about the interaction with mouse events
When devs are writing custom code for gestures, the data is async
f.ex. for a swipe, need to know direction, and perhaps some other
things
This now requires a lot of custom code
because may want to prevent the native handling
Need some UCs from developers and the issues they are running into
AB: any comments, questions?
DS: thanks for the summary and mentioning pain point
Do you have a sense of the +/- of both models?
SG: I've built an abstraction around mouse, pointer, touch
I tend to think MSPointer is easier to work with
Don't have to walk thru any arrays
So I think it is a bit nicer but I haven't built anything advanced
yet
DS: would it be possible to get some members of jQuery community to
give us some feedback
re both models i.e. the +/- of each
SG: yes, I think I can get some of that info
i.e. try to find what people like and the pros and cons of each
(IE vs. Webkit)
I don't think the WK model is intuitive
but people are now used to it
When they then switch to MSPointer, there is a learning curve
and that's unfortunate but the reality developers must face
SG: going back to the drawback to both models, that affects mouse
causes problems f.ex. with text selection
DS: I have seen some comments about IE model being more amenable to
an app that works across devices
can start with one touch and then extend
SG: if there was a generic pointer event could stop using mouse
one model would indeed be ideal
DS: I started down that path with D3E and touch events
but we decided to do touch in a separate spec
SG: if we had a standard similar to pointer, an abstraction over
Webkit would make sense
<mbrubeck> Mozilla also had a separate-event-per-pointer model
before implementing the WebKit/W3C model:
[13]https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/Touch_events_%28Mozilla_exp
erimental%29
[13] https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/Touch_events_%28Mozilla_experimental%29
and we could then add something like that to jQ
MB: Mozilla implemented our own Touch API for Windows
like MSPointer event uses one event per touch
it doesn't have getPointerList method
which is a good addition
if the app needs to know the number of touch points
With IE can get that data
DS: we had proposed something like that for the keyboard model [D3E]
if we were going to do something like that, would probably make
sense to have methods to get all touches and another to get all keys
pressed
AB: what do we do with this information and what specific follow-on
action(s) are there?
DS: I think Scott agreed to do followup on the +/- of both
approaches
... I just want to be clear that this IP issue means that some touch
event libraries can also be affected
AB: I've been wondering how widely known is this IP disclosure
SG: I think most web developers think there is a touch standard
a lot of confusion about what's going on and the state of the TE
spec
SG: we will not abstract to MSPointer because it is not a standard
and we will not normalize to W3C Touch Events because of the PAG
However, if the PAG says that is OK, then that is good
and then we can abstract on top of the TE spec
but we won't do that until the PAG is clear here
SG: jQuery won't release a normalization layer if the feature is not
a standard
because to do so is bad for the Web
We want to focus on standards
and to help the W3C
DS: thanks for that information Scott
it's good to know a standard is mandatory to be considered for a
normalization layer
Update on Touch Events PAG
AB: the Touch Events PAG
[14]http://www.w3.org/2012/01/touch-pag-charter has now met twice
and the minutes are Member-confidential
[15]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-te-pag/
... I'll give a brief summary of the status but we will *not* talk
any specifics about the IP Apple disclosed
[14] http://www.w3.org/2012/01/touch-pag-charter
[15] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-te-pag/
AoB
AB: any other topics for today?
... re the next call, it will be scheduled when needed
... meeting adjourned
Summary of Action Items
[End of minutes]
Received on Tuesday, 6 March 2012 17:17:46 UTC