Re: Re[2]: [EXTERNAL] Baseline stages: two or three?

Those are all good points.
So, to try to sum up:


  *
Baseline can either mean "Newly Available" or "Widely Available" (two statuses only).
  *
Non-Baseline features are currently labeled "Limited Availability", and this status might mean different things:
     *
The feature is on its way to becoming Baseline, it just hasn't yet.
     *
This feature is early in the making and is not supported anywhere yet.
     *
This feature has negative standards positions from one or more vendors, so it won't ever become Baseline.
  *
Discouraged is another status for features that are deprecated and actively discouraged by a relevant standards body (irrelevant of what the browser support data for this feature might be).

Patrick

________________________________
From: François Daoust <fd@w3.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2025 10:21
To: Schalk Neethling <volume4.schalk@gmail.com>; Daniel Beck <daniel@ddbeck.com>
Cc: Patrick Brosset <Patrick.Brosset@microsoft.com>; Masataka Yakura <myakura.web@gmail.com>; public-webdx@w3.org <public-webdx@w3.org>
Subject: Re[2]: [EXTERNAL] Baseline stages: two or three?

I just wanted to mention issue #1988 [1] which raises another nuance for
"Limited availability": early features that are not yet available in any
browser. From a data model perspective, these features are in the
"limited availability" state and that's totally fine. It would still be
less confusing to render them without a "Limited availability" badge,
given that the badge suggests they're available *somewhere*.

François.

[1] https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fweb-platform-dx%2Fweb-features%2Fissues%2F1988&data=05%7C02%7CPatrick.Brosset%40microsoft.com%7C77eb6ca114434bc8993d08ddc50ae5c9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C638883372854879189%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=LmlB03a2x62NBYF0MgXe7DXf%2FRVhHdJGbWP35OIsifQ%3D&reserved=0<https://github.com/web-platform-dx/web-features/issues/1988>

------ Original message ------
From "Schalk Neethling" <volume4.schalk@gmail.com>
To: "Daniel Beck" <daniel@ddbeck.com>
Cc : "Patrick Brosset" <Patrick.Brosset@microsoft.com>; "Masataka
Yakura" <myakura.web@gmail.com>; "public-webdx@w3.org"
<public-webdx@w3.org>
Date : 15/07/2025 14:04:28

>I also appreciate this conversation, as I was also not aware of the
>additional nuance around limited availability.
>
>This also leads me to wonder whether there is a way to indicate limited
>availability, but the feature set is on track to be newly available, as
>there are no strongly held negative stances from other browser engines.
>
>The other one I have heard discussed, and which goes in tandem with
>this, is limited availability, but on track towards being newly
>available, and can also be responsibly used today, either through
>progressive enhancement or a solid polyfill. Something like anchor
>positioning comes to mind, and things like text-box-*
>
>On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 12:24 PM Daniel Beck <daniel@ddbeck.com> wrote:
>>I think Patrick's answer is a good one. I'll add a few more
>>distinctions:
>>
>>"Limited availability" is really a shorthand for "not meeting the
>>requirements for Baseline." But "not meeting the requirements for
>>Baseline" also includes a couple of other states that the web-features
>>data can represent, including "discouraged" (being formally
>>deprecated, marked obsolete, and so on) and pending removal (e.g., DOM
>>mutation events).
>>
>>There are also conditions we can't yet represent. Most imporantly, I'm
>>thinking of features where there's a negative standards position from
>>one or more vendors. For those cases, "limited availability" is true.
>>But there's also no real prospect of that feature ever becoming
>>Baseline.
>>
>>So "Limited availability" is the most common case for non-Baseline
>>features, but it's not the only one. I'd discourage (pun intended)
>>everyone from characterizing "limited availability" as a sort of
>>"pre-Baseline" condition because some are post- or never-Baseline.
>>
>>I hope this helps!
>>
>>Daniel
>>
>>On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 9:26 AM Patrick Brosset
>><Patrick.Brosset@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>Hello Masataka,
>>>
>>>Thank you for your question. It shows that we do need to clarify this
>>>whenever/wherever we communicate about Baseline.
>>>For reference, the source of truth on this is:
>>>https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fweb-platform-dx%2Fweb-features%2Fblob%2Fmain%2Fdocs%2Fbaseline.md&data=05%7C02%7CPatrick.Brosset%40microsoft.com%7C77eb6ca114434bc8993d08ddc50ae5c9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C638883372854899886%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=EL3X5TB67BDBG9FSDIQ54VnEyVQLbjo0IHNmas2JAHY%3D&reserved=0<https://github.com/web-platform-dx/web-features/blob/main/docs/baseline.md>
>>><https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fweb-platform-dx%2Fweb-features%2Fblob%2Fmain%2Fdocs%2Fbaseline.md&data=05%7C02%7CPatrick.Brosset%40microsoft.com%7C77eb6ca114434bc8993d08ddc50ae5c9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C638883372854912103%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=NU2TL%2FxljTrtxV9Z%2BhLbUKnDTepVeJ1rD8Pm5sydk74%3D&reserved=0<https://github.com/web-platform-dx/web-features/blob/main/docs/baseline.md>>
>>>
>>>Baseline is a status, and it has two sub statuses.
>>>
>>>A web feature earns the Baseline status as soon as it becomes
>>>supported across all of the browsers from the core browser set.
>>>However, within this status, we differentiate features based on how
>>>long they've reached the status with two sub statuses.
>>>
>>>These sub statuses are called "Newly Available" and "Widely
>>>Available".
>>>
>>>Newly Available is reached as soon as the feature is supported across
>>>all the browsers from the core browser set.
>>>Widely Available is reached 30 months after that point.
>>>
>>>So, technically speaking, there are only two Baseline stages.
>>>
>>>If a feature is not yet supported across all of the browsers we care
>>>about, then it doesn't have the Baseline status yet. We call this
>>>"Limited Availability".
>>>
>>>Now, in practice, that means we often talk about these three things
>>>together: Limited Availability, Newly Available, and Widely
>>>Available. We often talk of these as a series of events that web
>>>features tend to go through during there lifetimes.
>>>Saying that Baseline has three stages is technically incorrect, but a
>>>shortcut we often take to introduce people to the Baseline concept.
>>>At least, I know I've used this shortcut quite a few times in various
>>>presentations..
>>>
>>>Do folks here think we should be stricter in enforcing the
>>>definition?
>>>
>>>Patrick
>>>
>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>From: Masataka Yakura <myakura.web@gmail.com>
>>>Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2025 18:05
>>>To: public-webdx@w3.org <public-webdx@w3.org>
>>>Subject: [EXTERNAL] Baseline stages: two or three?
>>>
>>>[You don't often get email from myakura.web@gmail.com. Learn why this
>>>is important at https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification

>>><https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> ]
>>>
>>>Hello, WebDX!
>>>Hope you all having a good week.
>>>
>>>I have a quick question of the stages of Baseline. The definition on
>>>the WebDX website [1] says:
>>>
>>> > Baseline features are available across popular browsers. Baseline
>>>has two stages:
>>> >
>>> > * **Newly available**: The feature works across the latest devices
>>>and browser versions. The feature might not work in older devices or
>>>browsers. Indicated with a blue icon.
>>> > * **Widely available**: The feature is well established and works
>>>across many devices and browser versions. It’s been available across
>>>browsers for at least 2½ years (30 months). Indicated with a green
>>>icon.
>>> >
>>> > Prior to being newly available, a feature has **Limited
>>>availability** when it's not yet available across all browsers.
>>>
>>>while web.dev Baseline page [2] says:
>>>
>>> > Baseline has three stages:
>>> >
>>> > * **Limited availablity:** The feature is not available in all the
>>>core browsers.
>>> > * **Newly available:** The feature becomes supported by all of the
>>>core browsers, and is therefore interoperable.
>>> > * **Widely available:** 30 months has passed since the newly
>>>interoperable date. The feature can be used by most sites without
>>>worrying about support.
>>>
>>>and I wonder which to follow when I explain Baseline to people.
>>>
>>>I really like WebDX's explanation of "across browsers" as it captures
>>>the essence of "Baseline." However, when I think about explaining
>>>Baseline in slides or bullet points, presenting it with three
>>>distinct
>>>labels feels much easier to me.
>>>
>>>So, what do you folks think? What's the group's perspective on this?
>>>
>>>Thanks a lot,
>>>Masataka
>>>
>>>[1]
>>>https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fweb-platform-dx.github.io%2Fweb-features%2F%23how-do-features-become-part-of-baseline%253F&data=05%7C02%7CPatrick.Brosset%40microsoft.com%7C77eb6ca114434bc8993d08ddc50ae5c9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C638883372854923167%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=kn%2FAkp7N1iBL9Z7aGX2eajmPuAvpZhSgszbVPpCUJjw%3D&reserved=0<https://web-platform-dx.github.io/web-features/#how-do-features-become-part-of-baseline%3F>
>>><https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fweb-platform-dx.github.io%2Fweb-features%2F%23how-do-features-become-part-of-baseline%253F&data=05%7C02%7CPatrick.Brosset%40microsoft.com%7C77eb6ca114434bc8993d08ddc50ae5c9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C638883372854932125%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3Exh%2BOV1jXaVFR15bpQ%2FNtnzVJQ%2BpaTpFn9ariPE7Ok%3D&reserved=0<https://web-platform-dx.github.io/web-features/#how-do-features-become-part-of-baseline%3F>>
>>>[2]
>>>https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fweb.dev%2Fbaseline%23how-do-things-become-baseline&data=05%7C02%7CPatrick.Brosset%40microsoft.com%7C77eb6ca114434bc8993d08ddc50ae5c9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C638883372854941061%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3jpswiBeOOd3U1ncYibXynIGQ5MJjsGjhDj4Yq8YOr8%3D&reserved=0<https://web.dev/baseline#how-do-things-become-baseline>
>>><https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fweb.dev%2Fbaseline%23how-do-things-become-baseline&data=05%7C02%7CPatrick.Brosset%40microsoft.com%7C77eb6ca114434bc8993d08ddc50ae5c9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C638883372854949796%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=CAdg34WLQKmcg%2BQgT5x%2BBUQ2Pyh21umbGneia%2BPqKz4%3D&reserved=0<https://web.dev/baseline#how-do-things-become-baseline>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Masataka Yakura
>>><myakura.web@gmail.com>
>>>