- From: Patrick Brosset <Patrick.Brosset@microsoft.com>
- Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 08:31:59 +0000
- To: Schalk Neethling <volume4.schalk@gmail.com>, Daniel Beck <daniel@ddbeck.com>, François Daoust <fd@w3.org>
- CC: Masataka Yakura <myakura.web@gmail.com>, "public-webdx@w3.org" <public-webdx@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <DU5PR83MB056933DA4433D185EDC36BE2F751A@DU5PR83MB0569.EURPRD83.prod.outlook.com>
Those are all good points. So, to try to sum up: * Baseline can either mean "Newly Available" or "Widely Available" (two statuses only). * Non-Baseline features are currently labeled "Limited Availability", and this status might mean different things: * The feature is on its way to becoming Baseline, it just hasn't yet. * This feature is early in the making and is not supported anywhere yet. * This feature has negative standards positions from one or more vendors, so it won't ever become Baseline. * Discouraged is another status for features that are deprecated and actively discouraged by a relevant standards body (irrelevant of what the browser support data for this feature might be). Patrick ________________________________ From: François Daoust <fd@w3.org> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2025 10:21 To: Schalk Neethling <volume4.schalk@gmail.com>; Daniel Beck <daniel@ddbeck.com> Cc: Patrick Brosset <Patrick.Brosset@microsoft.com>; Masataka Yakura <myakura.web@gmail.com>; public-webdx@w3.org <public-webdx@w3.org> Subject: Re[2]: [EXTERNAL] Baseline stages: two or three? I just wanted to mention issue #1988 [1] which raises another nuance for "Limited availability": early features that are not yet available in any browser. From a data model perspective, these features are in the "limited availability" state and that's totally fine. It would still be less confusing to render them without a "Limited availability" badge, given that the badge suggests they're available *somewhere*. François. [1] https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fweb-platform-dx%2Fweb-features%2Fissues%2F1988&data=05%7C02%7CPatrick.Brosset%40microsoft.com%7C77eb6ca114434bc8993d08ddc50ae5c9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C638883372854879189%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=LmlB03a2x62NBYF0MgXe7DXf%2FRVhHdJGbWP35OIsifQ%3D&reserved=0<https://github.com/web-platform-dx/web-features/issues/1988> ------ Original message ------ From "Schalk Neethling" <volume4.schalk@gmail.com> To: "Daniel Beck" <daniel@ddbeck.com> Cc : "Patrick Brosset" <Patrick.Brosset@microsoft.com>; "Masataka Yakura" <myakura.web@gmail.com>; "public-webdx@w3.org" <public-webdx@w3.org> Date : 15/07/2025 14:04:28 >I also appreciate this conversation, as I was also not aware of the >additional nuance around limited availability. > >This also leads me to wonder whether there is a way to indicate limited >availability, but the feature set is on track to be newly available, as >there are no strongly held negative stances from other browser engines. > >The other one I have heard discussed, and which goes in tandem with >this, is limited availability, but on track towards being newly >available, and can also be responsibly used today, either through >progressive enhancement or a solid polyfill. Something like anchor >positioning comes to mind, and things like text-box-* > >On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 12:24 PM Daniel Beck <daniel@ddbeck.com> wrote: >>I think Patrick's answer is a good one. I'll add a few more >>distinctions: >> >>"Limited availability" is really a shorthand for "not meeting the >>requirements for Baseline." But "not meeting the requirements for >>Baseline" also includes a couple of other states that the web-features >>data can represent, including "discouraged" (being formally >>deprecated, marked obsolete, and so on) and pending removal (e.g., DOM >>mutation events). >> >>There are also conditions we can't yet represent. Most imporantly, I'm >>thinking of features where there's a negative standards position from >>one or more vendors. For those cases, "limited availability" is true. >>But there's also no real prospect of that feature ever becoming >>Baseline. >> >>So "Limited availability" is the most common case for non-Baseline >>features, but it's not the only one. I'd discourage (pun intended) >>everyone from characterizing "limited availability" as a sort of >>"pre-Baseline" condition because some are post- or never-Baseline. >> >>I hope this helps! >> >>Daniel >> >>On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 9:26 AM Patrick Brosset >><Patrick.Brosset@microsoft.com> wrote: >>>Hello Masataka, >>> >>>Thank you for your question. It shows that we do need to clarify this >>>whenever/wherever we communicate about Baseline. >>>For reference, the source of truth on this is: >>>https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fweb-platform-dx%2Fweb-features%2Fblob%2Fmain%2Fdocs%2Fbaseline.md&data=05%7C02%7CPatrick.Brosset%40microsoft.com%7C77eb6ca114434bc8993d08ddc50ae5c9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C638883372854899886%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=EL3X5TB67BDBG9FSDIQ54VnEyVQLbjo0IHNmas2JAHY%3D&reserved=0<https://github.com/web-platform-dx/web-features/blob/main/docs/baseline.md> >>><https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fweb-platform-dx%2Fweb-features%2Fblob%2Fmain%2Fdocs%2Fbaseline.md&data=05%7C02%7CPatrick.Brosset%40microsoft.com%7C77eb6ca114434bc8993d08ddc50ae5c9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C638883372854912103%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=NU2TL%2FxljTrtxV9Z%2BhLbUKnDTepVeJ1rD8Pm5sydk74%3D&reserved=0<https://github.com/web-platform-dx/web-features/blob/main/docs/baseline.md>> >>> >>>Baseline is a status, and it has two sub statuses. >>> >>>A web feature earns the Baseline status as soon as it becomes >>>supported across all of the browsers from the core browser set. >>>However, within this status, we differentiate features based on how >>>long they've reached the status with two sub statuses. >>> >>>These sub statuses are called "Newly Available" and "Widely >>>Available". >>> >>>Newly Available is reached as soon as the feature is supported across >>>all the browsers from the core browser set. >>>Widely Available is reached 30 months after that point. >>> >>>So, technically speaking, there are only two Baseline stages. >>> >>>If a feature is not yet supported across all of the browsers we care >>>about, then it doesn't have the Baseline status yet. We call this >>>"Limited Availability". >>> >>>Now, in practice, that means we often talk about these three things >>>together: Limited Availability, Newly Available, and Widely >>>Available. We often talk of these as a series of events that web >>>features tend to go through during there lifetimes. >>>Saying that Baseline has three stages is technically incorrect, but a >>>shortcut we often take to introduce people to the Baseline concept. >>>At least, I know I've used this shortcut quite a few times in various >>>presentations.. >>> >>>Do folks here think we should be stricter in enforcing the >>>definition? >>> >>>Patrick >>> >>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>From: Masataka Yakura <myakura.web@gmail.com> >>>Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2025 18:05 >>>To: public-webdx@w3.org <public-webdx@w3.org> >>>Subject: [EXTERNAL] Baseline stages: two or three? >>> >>>[You don't often get email from myakura.web@gmail.com. Learn why this >>>is important at https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification >>><https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> ] >>> >>>Hello, WebDX! >>>Hope you all having a good week. >>> >>>I have a quick question of the stages of Baseline. The definition on >>>the WebDX website [1] says: >>> >>> > Baseline features are available across popular browsers. Baseline >>>has two stages: >>> > >>> > * **Newly available**: The feature works across the latest devices >>>and browser versions. The feature might not work in older devices or >>>browsers. Indicated with a blue icon. >>> > * **Widely available**: The feature is well established and works >>>across many devices and browser versions. It’s been available across >>>browsers for at least 2½ years (30 months). Indicated with a green >>>icon. >>> > >>> > Prior to being newly available, a feature has **Limited >>>availability** when it's not yet available across all browsers. >>> >>>while web.dev Baseline page [2] says: >>> >>> > Baseline has three stages: >>> > >>> > * **Limited availablity:** The feature is not available in all the >>>core browsers. >>> > * **Newly available:** The feature becomes supported by all of the >>>core browsers, and is therefore interoperable. >>> > * **Widely available:** 30 months has passed since the newly >>>interoperable date. The feature can be used by most sites without >>>worrying about support. >>> >>>and I wonder which to follow when I explain Baseline to people. >>> >>>I really like WebDX's explanation of "across browsers" as it captures >>>the essence of "Baseline." However, when I think about explaining >>>Baseline in slides or bullet points, presenting it with three >>>distinct >>>labels feels much easier to me. >>> >>>So, what do you folks think? What's the group's perspective on this? >>> >>>Thanks a lot, >>>Masataka >>> >>>[1] >>>https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fweb-platform-dx.github.io%2Fweb-features%2F%23how-do-features-become-part-of-baseline%253F&data=05%7C02%7CPatrick.Brosset%40microsoft.com%7C77eb6ca114434bc8993d08ddc50ae5c9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C638883372854923167%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=kn%2FAkp7N1iBL9Z7aGX2eajmPuAvpZhSgszbVPpCUJjw%3D&reserved=0<https://web-platform-dx.github.io/web-features/#how-do-features-become-part-of-baseline%3F> >>><https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fweb-platform-dx.github.io%2Fweb-features%2F%23how-do-features-become-part-of-baseline%253F&data=05%7C02%7CPatrick.Brosset%40microsoft.com%7C77eb6ca114434bc8993d08ddc50ae5c9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C638883372854932125%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3Exh%2BOV1jXaVFR15bpQ%2FNtnzVJQ%2BpaTpFn9ariPE7Ok%3D&reserved=0<https://web-platform-dx.github.io/web-features/#how-do-features-become-part-of-baseline%3F>> >>>[2] >>>https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fweb.dev%2Fbaseline%23how-do-things-become-baseline&data=05%7C02%7CPatrick.Brosset%40microsoft.com%7C77eb6ca114434bc8993d08ddc50ae5c9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C638883372854941061%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3jpswiBeOOd3U1ncYibXynIGQ5MJjsGjhDj4Yq8YOr8%3D&reserved=0<https://web.dev/baseline#how-do-things-become-baseline> >>><https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fweb.dev%2Fbaseline%23how-do-things-become-baseline&data=05%7C02%7CPatrick.Brosset%40microsoft.com%7C77eb6ca114434bc8993d08ddc50ae5c9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C638883372854949796%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=CAdg34WLQKmcg%2BQgT5x%2BBUQ2Pyh21umbGneia%2BPqKz4%3D&reserved=0<https://web.dev/baseline#how-do-things-become-baseline>> >>> >>>-- >>>Masataka Yakura >>><myakura.web@gmail.com> >>>
Received on Thursday, 17 July 2025 08:32:07 UTC