Re: DOM Dependency

Actually, in PolyCrypt, we had to go out of our way to emulate EventTarget.  It would have been (slightly) easier just to use callbacks.

But I'm not sure that polyfill examples should have all that much effect on the real API.


On Feb 27, 2013, at 7:04 AM, Aymeric Vitte <vitteaymeric@gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> cc-ing the right list
> 
> And then, thinking again about it, there is finally nothing in the API related to the DOM (except EventTaget and window), and this is good.
> 
> Polycript is a living example of non dependency : it does emulate the promise style with iframes and workers, even if it is using the DOM and DOM events, this is not something intrasec of the EventTarget interface.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> -------- Message original --------
> Sujet:	Re: DOM Dependency
> Date :	Wed, 27 Feb 2013 01:22:47 +0100
> De :	Aymeric Vitte <vitteaymeric@gmail.com>
> Pour :	Ryan Sleevi <sleevi@google.com>
> Copie à :	tonynad@microsoft.com, ddahl@mozilla.com, public-webcrypto@w3.org, slightlyoff@google.com, GALINDO Virginie <Virginie.GALINDO@gemalto.com>
> 
> Since Anthony raised this point I thought about it and I think he is 
> right, but on another hand maybe it's a non issue, or just a wording issue.
> 
> Because the spec just says that there is a dependency with DOM Events 
> interface, but just could say that there is a dependency with DOM 
> EventTarget like interface, or something like that.
> 
> For example in a node.js env or another non browser/DOM  env I could 
> just implement the EventTarget interface synchronously (ie fake events) 
> or asynchronously, as I like,  and still be compliant with the spec.
> 
> Then maybe this dependency should just be rewritten in a way that 
> EventTarget interface is not necessarily the DOM's one but something 
> like it.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Le 26/02/2013 19:57, Ryan Sleevi a écrit :
> > In order to remove that dependency, you need to rewrite the spec to
> > demonstrate an asynchronous interface without using events, as well as
> > define an event/task processing model that is wholly consistent with
> > the existing DOM.
> >
> > That is the minimum requirement to removing the dependency, and such a
> > significant change would require a lot of review and discussion, and
> > it would have to be demonstrated that such a rewrite does not create a
> > web-developer-hostile API.
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 10:49 AM, Anthony Nadalin 
> <tonynad@microsoft.com>
>  wrote:
> >> so in order to have a proposal we have to have an issue, not sure issue 10
> >> captures all the points here. I will look over issue 10 and see. The
> >> technical contribution would come in the form of spec updates to remove DOM
> >> dependency, right now there is a explicit statement in the API that DOM MUST
> >> be supported, that would be removed.
> >>
> >> Sent from Windows Mail
> >>
> >> From: GALINDO Virginie
> >> Sent: February 26, 2013 10:39 AM
> >> To: Ryan Sleevi
> >> CC: David Dahl, 
> public-webcrypto@w3.org
> , Anthony Nadalin, Alex Russell
> >> Subject: RE: DOM Dependency
> >>
> >> Ryan,
> >>
> >>> Are you suggesting that non-browser use cases are in scope, until
> >>> established otherwise, or that they're out of
> >>> scope, until proposals emerge that make them in scope?
> >> I think that none of your proposal fit with my mail :).
> >>
> >> I am not trying to decide if it is in or out of scope of the charter as I
> >> think it has been treated as a grey zone. I remind that we raised the
> >> issue-10 about "non-browser environment" 10 months ago, and no one said that
> >> "non-browser environment" was out of scope - which means probably that it
> >> was not that clear in the charter.
> >>
> >> My mail is a call for technical contribution (to replace charter
> >> interpretation never ending discussion that I see coming). If there is no
> >> contribution that the WG and editors feel reasonable, we will not address
> >> the non-browser environment.
> >>
> >> Does it clarify ?
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Virginie
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Ryan Sleevi [
> mailto:sleevi@google.com
> ]
> >> Sent: mardi 26 février 2013 19:21
> >> To: GALINDO Virginie
> >> Cc: David Dahl; 
> public-webcrypto@w3.org
> ; Anthony Nadalin; Alex Russell
> >> Subject: Re: DOM Dependency
> >>
> >> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 10:17 AM, GALINDO Virginie
> >> 
> <Virginie.GALINDO@gemalto.com>
>  wrote:
> >>> Dear all,
> >>>
> >>> It seems to me that the ISSUE-10 describes the request from Anthony :
> >>> 
> http://www.w3.org/2012/webcrypto/track/issues/10
>  This issue was raised at
> >>> last summer F2F meeting in Santa Clara, and we said that it would be nice to
> >>> make sure we are addressing any environment, browser based or not
> >>> browser-based. Unfortunately, we did not have any proposal to formally
> >>> review the spec, with that constraint.
> >>>
> >>> Personally I don't remember non-browser framework were considered as out
> >>> of scope during our discussion in Santa Clara and on the other hand, when
> >>> the charter was designed, this case was not mentioned -which could explain
> >>> why the webapp case is so popular in it.  We can argue hours about the
> >>> charter interpretation but I think that we should start with a pragmatic
> >>> approach to that.
> >>>
> >>> Is there any reasonable technical solution to cope with that constraint,
> >>> that can be managed in a timeframe which fits with our deliverable roadmap ?
> >>> Any proposal from the WG participants ?
> >> Hi Virginie,
> >>
> >> I'm not sure I understand this question you're asking.
> >>
> >> Are you suggesting that non-browser use cases are in scope, until
> >> established otherwise, or that they're out of scope, until proposals emerge
> >> that make them in scope?
> >>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Virginie
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: David Dahl [
> mailto:ddahl@mozilla.com
> ]
> >>> Sent: mercredi 20 février 2013 07:50
> >>> To: Anthony Nadalin
> >>> Cc: 
> public-webcrypto@w3.org
> ; Alex Russell; Ryan Sleevi
> >>> Subject: Re: DOM Dependency
> >>>
> >>> I am trying to imagine node.js mocking/implementing (properly) the
> >>> EventTarget interface. That does not seem like it will work too well.
> >>>
> >>> That being said, the WorkerCrypto interface might work better in a
> >>> non-browser environment as a worker will not be as tied to the DOM.
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>>
> >>> David
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Anthony Nadalin" 
> <tonynad@microsoft.com>
> 
> >>> To: "Ryan Sleevi" 
> <sleevi@google.com>
> 
> >>> Cc: 
> public-webcrypto@w3.org, "Alex Russell" <slightlyoff@google.com>
> 
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 10:22:20 PM
> >>> Subject: RE: DOM Dependency
> >>>
> >>> It has been discussed many times in this WG, the browser is not the only
> >>> target for the APIs, stand-alone and server side are also targets, the
> >>> specification should not have a dependency on DOM and a bug should be opened
> >>> to resolve this.
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Ryan Sleevi [
> mailto:sleevi@google.com
> ]
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 2:30 PM
> >>> To: Anthony Nadalin
> >>> Cc: 
> public-webcrypto@w3.org
> ; Alex Russell
> >>> Subject: Re: DOM Dependency
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Anthony Nadalin 
> <tonynad@microsoft.com>
> 
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> And also tasked for standalone environments so we should not have
> >>>> this dependency as this is not a JS dependency
> >>> Can you point that out in the charter?
> >>>
> >>> We're talking about the same dependency found in HTML - namely, the notion
> >>> of a sane event model.
> >>>
> >>> I'd be curious to see how you would propose an asynchronous API without
> >>> events and without re-inventing events through some specification-specific
> >>> dialect.
> >>>
> >>> The phrase "Web Application" appears nine times in our charter, so surely
> >>> this is not being seen as some new requirement. It's been this way since the
> >>> start.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> 
> -- 
> jCore
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Received on Wednesday, 27 February 2013 16:23:09 UTC