Re: [W3C Web Crypto WG] Rechartering discussion - Gemalto contribution

On 2015-01-30 10:09, Axel.Nennker@telekom.de wrote:
> I very much welcome Gemalto's proposal. Thanks, Karen.
>
> And I think we need more proposals and a discussion about "the existing web security and threat model" and how hardware fits.

Indeed.

But that's not enough, we must also evaluate:

- Browser "footprint" (the smaller the better)
- Distribution and vetting models for trusted software (the traditional .EXE download isn't applicable anymore)
- Extensibility ("future-proof")

I also think that it would be useful mapping a few target applications to a proposal for finding possible loop-holes or disconnects.

One of the least understood issues is on-line token initiation.  Here U2F has clearly set the bar.
Using TEEs this becomes a core feature.


> Currently we have some deployments of smartcards on the web. We heard about them during the webcrypto.next workshop.
>
> I use a browser and my company issued smart card several times a day to access company services.

Just as a reference, it would be interesting knowing what kind of browser-auth-solution you are using.


> I guess this is a fair use of the existing web security and threat model.

It looks like there are *two* entirely different models, SOP and the one featured in HTTPS CCA (Client Certificate Authentication).
Using HTTPS CCA, "trusted software" in the browser acts a "Shield" against malicious code and operations performed without the user's consent.
Well, this is really the core of the security and treat model used by the browser itself :-)


> I do see the privacy problems when a site can enumerate all non-sop keys…
> But is there agreement already that there is no solution to this problem?

Several persons believe this is an unacceptable solution.  Personally, I'm also worried about creating a awkward and hard-coded security GUIs that mere mortals can't possibly understand like:
"Key xyz is now about to sign a blob, do you agree?"

With SOP-restricted keys you can (with some difficulties) do considerably better: https://mobilepki.org/WCPPSignatureDemo


> The European Banking Authority published their guidelines in December referenced here:
>
> http://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/index.cfm/newsletter/article/?articles_uuid=D5C8466E-5056-B741-DBFC784E05936A15
>
> “…An essential element for the EBA guidelines is the reliance on the concept of strong customer authentication.”
>
> Europeans have EMVco with chip&pin and the rollout has started in the US. “The Web” can turn away from this but I think “it” should not.
>
> I think the charter should allow the WG to work on these problems.

For a charter spanning all these issues, I would follow the "prestudy" path of the Web Payment IG.
Unlike a true WG, a prestudy could be open for anybody.

Cheers,
Anders


>
> Maybe there will be a SOP-restricted API for signing/encryption/authentication/…
>
> Maybe there will be a non-SOP-API for authentication
>
> Maybe there will be a non-SOP-API for attribute-based credentials (idemix, uprove, abc4trust)
>
> -Axel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anders Rundgren [mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, January 30, 2015 6:42 AM
> To: Brad Hill; Lu HongQian Karen; GALINDO Virginie; public-web-security@w3.org
> Cc: Wendy Seltzer; Harry Halpin
> Subject: Re: [W3C Web Crypto WG] Rechartering discussion - Gemalto contribution
>
> On 2015-01-29 23:50, Brad Hill wrote:
>
>  > I would like to see details of how this kind of API would or could interact with the Same-Origin model of web security, specifically:
>
>  >
>
>  >  1. Privacy and tracking.  How does the presence of specific crypto elements and discoverable keys which are not Origin-scoped not create privacy violations?
>
>  >
>
>  > 2. Origin security.  How are risks around identification of or impersonation of the server-side of a transaction, and potential abuse of a globally-scope key mitigated by  this kind of API design?
>
>  >
>
>  > Without a clear discussion of how this API fits into the existing Web security and threat model, I think it is inappropriate to proceed.  We can't just throw away the fundamental security model that billions of users and deployed applications depend on, and I see no evidence (at least in these few slides) that such issues have been considered by this proposal.
>
> +1
>
> I sent a bunch of similar questions privately.
>
> Assuming that the scheme indeed *is* SOP compliant a number of other questions arise such as:
>
> - What does this offer that U2F doesn't already have?
>
> - What are the thought applications for SOP-constrained certificates?
>
> Then I would of course be very interested hearing how this specification matches the following bold statement by the W3C
>
> http://www.w3.org/2015/01/banker_payments.pdf
>
> given the fact that
>
>                Secure AND Convenient Web Payments
>
> haven't really progressed the last 20 years or so.
>
> If you consider usage and importance also, it has actually moved in the *opposite* direction.
>
> Cheers
>
> Anders Rundgren
>
>  >
>
>  > Brad Hill
>
>  >
>
>  > From: Lu HongQian Karen <karen.lu@gemalto.com
>
>  > <mailto:karen.lu@gemalto.com>>
>
>  > Date: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 10:01 AM
>
>  > To: GALINDO Virginie <Virginie.Galindo@gemalto.com
>
>  > <mailto:Virginie.Galindo@gemalto.com>>, "public-webcrypto@w3.org
>
>  > <mailto:public-webcrypto@w3.org>" <public-webcrypto@w3.org
>
>  > <mailto:public-webcrypto@w3.org>>
>
>  > Cc: "public-web-security@w3.org <mailto:public-web-security@w3.org> <mailto:public-web-security@w3.org%20%3cmailto:public-web-security@w3.org%3e>"
>
>  > <public-web-security@w3.org <mailto:public-web-security@w3.org <mailto:public-web-security@w3.org%20%3cmailto:public-web-security@w3.org>>>,
>
>  > Wendy Seltzer <wseltzer@w3.org <mailto:wseltzer@w3.org <mailto:wseltzer@w3.org%20%3cmailto:wseltzer@w3.org>>>, Harry Halpin
>
>  > <hhalpin@w3.org <mailto:hhalpin@w3.org <mailto:hhalpin@w3.org%20%3cmailto:hhalpin@w3.org>>>
>
>  > Subject: RE: [W3C Web Crypto WG] Rechartering discussion - Gemalto
>
>  > contribution
>
>  > Resent-From: <public-web-security@w3.org
>
>  > <mailto:public-web-security@w3.org>>
>
>  > Resent-Date: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 10:04 AM
>
>  >
>
>  >     Please review Gemalto’s contribution. We welcome your comments.
>
>  >
>
>  >     Regards,
>
>  >
>
>  >     Karen
>
>  >
>
>  >     *From:*GALINDO Virginie [mailto:Virginie.Galindo@gemalto.com]
>
>  >     *Sent:* Wednesday, January 07, 2015 3:48 AM
>
>  >     *To:* public-webcrypto@w3.org <mailto:public-webcrypto@w3.org> <mailto:public-webcrypto@w3.org>
>
>  >     *Cc:* public-web-security@w3.org <mailto:public-web-security@w3.org> <mailto:public-web-security@w3.org>; Wendy Seltzer; Harry Halpin
>
>  >     *Subject:* [W3C Web Crypto WG] Rechartering discussion
>
>  >
>
>  >     Dear all,
>
>  >
>
>  >     Web Crypto WG charter [1] will end by the end of March. We need to prepare the next charter of Web Crypto.
>
>  >
>
>  >     As a reminder, the conversation has started on this page :
>
>  > https://www.w3.org/Security/wiki/IG/webcryptonext_draft_charter
>
>  >
>
>  >     Feel free to add you ideas and suggestions on the wiki and/or expose your opinion and question on the public-webcrypto@w3.org <mailto:public-webcrypto@w3.org> <mailto:public-webcrypto@w3.org> or public-webcrypto-comment@w3.org <mailto:public-webcrypto-comment@w3.org> <mailto:public-webcrypto-comment@w3.org> (for non W3C Web Crypto WG members).
>
>  >
>
>  >     Regards,
>
>  >
>
>  >     Virginie
>
>  >
>
>  >     [1] http://www.w3.org/2011/11/webcryptography-charter.html
>
>  >
>
>  >
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Received on Friday, 30 January 2015 11:12:14 UTC