Re: [W3C Web Crypto WG] Rechartering discussion - Gemalto contribution

On 2015-02-01 22:25, Brad Hill wrote:
> I agree entirely with (b), but I think we need to start with the Web security model as our first principle to build on, and hardware will need to be adapted to and find ways to operate within that model.  That is what, e.g. FIDO has done.

Q: How come a browser connect to any site or Apple Pay be used with any merchant?
A: Because both represent trusted applications

That's the missing link in the submissions, no more, no less.  A cryptographic driver may be trusted but it is not application.

Our own Mr. WebCrypto (Ryan Sleevy) actually showed us[1] how to deal with this quite recently:
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webcrypto-comments/2015Jan/0000.html

A minute "market research" performed by yours truly, verified that quite a bunch of the folks attending the Mountain View F2F indeed are (since long) evaluating or using Chrome native messaging!

Anders

1] It was new even to me.  I have subsequently shelved all my quite ambitious effort fixing the problem at the browser level and turned my full attention to this path.


>
> This proposal is about starting with the first principle that legacy hardware devices that were never designed for the web environment must be supported, and finding ways to shoehorn them into browser APIs, with the best excuse being that the "damage is already done" by things like ActiveX.  We've spent a long time walking back the mistakes of ActiveX, I'd not like to backtrack.
>
> Basically I think this is a priority of constituencies issue.  It is more important that we consider the priorities of the user in having a web that isn't authenticating and cross-linking them in a cryptographically strong manner without their consent, and that whatever devices they do purchase or have provisioned to them are able to be used in an open, safe and privacy-respecting manner.
>
> I understand the concerns of application and service providers who want to leverage their existing investment in billions of legacy devices already in the hands of the user, but I just don't think those concerns outweigh doing what is best for users and taking security on the web forward instead of backwards.
>
> In particular, I think if the best we can do for "privacy" for these devices is to say that it is managed on your behalf through back-room arrangements between your bank, government, handset provider and network carrier, acting in their interests first and without your consent, (I.e. GlobalPlatform / TEE solution in which your hardware token can only talk to signed applications "approved" by someone else) that isn't good enough, and goes against the entire open innovation model that's made the web a success.
>
> -Brad
>
> From: "PHoyer@hidglobal.com <mailto:PHoyer@hidglobal.com>" <PHoyer@hidglobal.com <mailto:PHoyer@hidglobal.com>>
> Date: Friday, January 30, 2015 at 10:28 AM
> To: Bradley Hill <hillbrad@fb.com <mailto:hillbrad@fb.com>>
> Cc: Harry Halpin <hhalpin@w3.org <mailto:hhalpin@w3.org>>, Lu HongQian Karen <karen.lu@gemalto.com <mailto:karen.lu@gemalto.com>>, "public-web-security@w3.org <mailto:public-web-security@w3.org>" <public-web-security@w3.org <mailto:public-web-security@w3.org>>, "public-webcrypto@w3.org <mailto:public-webcrypto@w3.org>" <public-webcrypto@w3.org <mailto:public-webcrypto@w3.org>>, GALINDO Virginie <Virginie.Galindo@gemalto.com <mailto:Virginie.Galindo@gemalto.com>>, Wendy Seltzer <wseltzer@w3.org <mailto:wseltzer@w3.org>>
> Subject: Re: [W3C Web Crypto WG] Rechartering discussion - Gemalto contribution
>
>     Brad,
>     one point that I made at the workshop is that currently centrally issued eIDs are being used on the web and with web applications.
>
>     So it is not that we are talking about introducing something new that breaks privacy or security we are already in a world where this happens.
>
>     The people in W3C and in the W3 are uniquely positioned as willing experts in the field to find a solution that is
>
>     a) homogenous in the approach and does not mean inexperienced web developers have to wrestle with java / activX plugins potentially putting other web apps accessed by the same browser at risk due to security lapses in the plugins
>     b) can actually improve the situation and potentially find a way to increase privacy and security of the existing solution especially as we have mindshare of the browser development community
>
>     I completely share your view that we need to tackle this issue but is a WG not exactly the right place to do this?
>
>     Philip
>
>
>     Inactive hide details for Brad Hill ---29/01/2015 22:52:23---I would like to see details of how this kind of API would or couldBrad Hill ---29/01/2015 22:52:23---I would like to see details of how this kind of API would or could interact with the Same-Origin mod
>
>     From: Brad Hill <hillbrad@fb.com <mailto:hillbrad@fb.com>>
>     To: Lu HongQian Karen <karen.lu@gemalto.com <mailto:karen.lu@gemalto.com>>, GALINDO Virginie <Virginie.Galindo@gemalto.com <mailto:Virginie.Galindo@gemalto.com>>, "public-webcrypto@w3.org <mailto:public-webcrypto@w3.org>" <public-webcrypto@w3.org <mailto:public-webcrypto@w3.org>>
>     Cc: "public-web-security@w3.org <mailto:public-web-security@w3.org>" <public-web-security@w3.org <mailto:public-web-security@w3.org>>, Wendy Seltzer <wseltzer@w3.org <mailto:wseltzer@w3.org>>, Harry Halpin <hhalpin@w3.org <mailto:hhalpin@w3.org>>
>     Date: 29/01/2015 22:52
>     Subject: Re: [W3C Web Crypto WG] Rechartering discussion - Gemalto contribution
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>     I would like to see details of how this kind of API would or could interact with the Same-Origin model of web security, specifically:
>
>         1. Privacy and tracking.  How does the presence of specific crypto elements and discoverable keys which are not Origin-scoped not create privacy violations? 
>
>     2. Origin security.  How are risks around identification of or impersonation of the server-side of a transaction, and potential abuse of a globally-scope key mitigated by  this kind of API design?
>
>     Without a clear discussion of how this API fits into the existing Web security and threat model, I think it is inappropriate to proceed.  We can't just throw away the fundamental security model that billions of users and deployed applications depend on, and I see no evidence (at least in these few slides) that such issues have been considered by this proposal.
>
>     Brad Hill
>
>     *From: *Lu HongQian Karen <_karen.lu@gemalto.com_ <mailto:karen.lu@gemalto.com>>*
>     Date: *Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 10:01 AM*
>     To: *GALINDO Virginie <_Virginie.Galindo@gemalto.com_ <mailto:Virginie.Galindo@gemalto.com>>, "_public-webcrypto@w3.org_ <mailto:public-webcrypto@w3.org>" <_public-webcrypto@w3.org_ <mailto:public-webcrypto@w3.org>>*
>     Cc: *"_public-web-security@w3.org_ <mailto:public-web-security@w3.org>" <_public-web-security@w3.org_ <mailto:public-web-security@w3.org>>, Wendy Seltzer <_wseltzer@w3.org_ <mailto:wseltzer@w3.org>>, Harry Halpin <_hhalpin@w3.org_ <mailto:hhalpin@w3.org>>*
>     Subject: *RE: [W3C Web Crypto WG] Rechartering discussion - Gemalto contribution*
>     Resent-From: *<_public-web-security@w3.org_ <mailto:public-web-security@w3.org>>*
>     Resent-Date: *Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 10:04 AM
>
>         Please review Gemalto’s contribution. We welcome your comments.
>
>         Regards,
>         Karen
>
>         *From:* GALINDO Virginie [_mailto:Virginie.Galindo@gemalto.com_] *
>         Sent:* Wednesday, January 07, 2015 3:48 AM*
>         To:*_public-webcrypto@w3.org_ <mailto:public-webcrypto@w3.org>*
>         Cc:*_public-web-security@w3.org_ <mailto:public-web-security@w3.org>; Wendy Seltzer; Harry Halpin*
>         Subject:* [W3C Web Crypto WG] Rechartering discussion
>
>         Dear all,
>
>         Web Crypto WG charter [1] will end by the end of March. We need to prepare the next charter of Web Crypto.
>
>         As a reminder, the conversation has started on this page : _https://www.w3.org/Security/wiki/IG/webcryptonext_draft_charter_
>         Feel free to add you ideas and suggestions on the wiki and/or expose your opinion and question on the _public-webcrypto@w3.org_ <mailto:public-webcrypto@w3.org> or _public-webcrypto-comment@w3.org_ <mailto:public-webcrypto-comment@w3.org> (for non W3C Web Crypto WG members).
>
>         Regards,
>         Virginie
>
>         [1] _http://www.w3.org/2011/11/webcryptography-charter.html_
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