Re: Network Emulation Trace Developer Tools Proposal: PoC Info

Hi,
it would be cool if the trace files could be used in
https://github.com/sitespeedio/throttle. That way devs can use it
independent of browser/tool and with more accuracy than using the built in
network throttling that some browsers support.

Best
Peter

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 7:09 AM Divakaran, Sudeep <
sudeep.divakaran@intel.com> wrote:

> Thanks Yoav for sharing possible ideas and connecting us with Patrick &
> Tim from webpagetest.org. The suggestions are in-line with the
> discussions we have had in our Web & Networks IG (WNIG).
>
>
>
> I think Patrick’s suggestion regarding wiring it to netem is a good
> recommendation too.
>
>
>
> The collected trace could follow a standard format. How it is used for
> network emulation can be topic for broader discussion, e.g. either its done
> in the browser (current demo proposal) or even lower using netem, etc.
>
>
>
> The greater interest seems to stem from the view that having the
> capability to emulate large variances in cellular connectivity from region
> to region (expected between & within networks) will benefit testing
> applications like media streaming quickly (ref traces from sub-way, driving
> through congested market place, InterRAT handover or while switching
> networks, etc are good examples). Having a common repo that the browser
> developer tools can use (like WPT repo) are indeed good suggestions.
>
>
>
> I concur, how the developer can adapt the app based on these tests isn’t
> very clear. Perhaps examples like how NetInfo API are used by Apps today
> could be one.
>
>
>
> To add, another topic being discussed in our IG, which is still under
> evaluation, is using predicted information about varying cellular
> conditions (if possible to make it available through some API). It may be
> better option to adapt, than relying on real-time congestion info or net
> info.
>
>
>
> We will help connect the WNIG members with webpagetest.org team to
> discuss this further (adding Jonas in the loop of this thread as well). We
> will also create a github thread so that we can track the discussions and
> documentations in one place.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Sudeep
>
> Co-Chair Web & Networks IG
>
>
>
> *From:* Patrick Meenan <pmeenan@webpagetest.org>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 9, 2021 9:58 PM
> *To:* Yoav Weiss <yoavweiss@google.com>
> *Cc:* Divakaran, Sudeep <sudeep.divakaran@intel.com>; Tim Kadlec <
> tim@timkadlec.com>; public-web-perf@w3.org; Dominique Hazael-Massieux <
> dom@w3.org>; DRUTA, DAN <dd5826@att.com>; Song XU <
> xusong@migu.chinamobile.com>
> *Subject:* Re: Network Emulation Trace Developer Tools Proposal: PoC Info
>
>
>
> Looks interesting.  I could see WebPageTest supporting a trace profile to
> use during testing - would just need to figure out how to wire it into
> netem.  The more interesting parts would be to better emulate the ramps for
> cellular connectivity.
>
>
>
> That said, I'm not sure web developers would be able to do much with it.
> They tend to have enough of a problem optimizing for a few fixed profiles
> and adding variability to that may not result in useful signal for them to
> optimize towards (at least for the typical case of web page loads).  A
> video stream or protocol/congestion control development are much better
> fits for being able to adapt to variable conditions quickly.
>
>
>
> I'm happy to chat more, otherwise I'll keep an eye on the project and see
> if there's anything I can expose in WebPageTest to help.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 10:28 AM Yoav Weiss <yoavweiss@google.com> wrote:
>
> Hey folks,
>
>
>
> To continue the conversation from today's meeting
> <https://www.w3.org/2021/03/09-web-networks-minutes.html>, I think it
> might be interesting for y'all to talk to +Patrick Meenan
> <pmeenan@webpagetest.org> and +Tim Kadlec <tim@timkadlec.com> who work on
> webpagetest.org
>
>
>
> Here's the scenario where I imagine network tracing to be extremely
> interesting:
>
>    - Folks around the world capturing real-life network conditions (e.g.
>    "mid-day in Bangalore", "rural area in US", "London Tube", etc)
>    - WPT has a collection of those traces that developers can
>    automatically apply when testing their site's performance
>    - Developers (automatically) test their site loading under those
>    conditions, and (hopefully) find performance bottlenecks that are currently
>    invisible
>
> What do y'all think?
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Yoav
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 8, 2021 at 11:32 AM Divakaran, Sudeep <
> sudeep.divakaran@intel.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Chairs and all in Web Perf WG,
>
>
>
> I am Co-Chair of the W3C Web & Networks IG. At TPAC 2020 WG meeting,
> during the Network Diagnostics API proposal discussion, I brought up a
> couple of topics which may be of interest in this WG. One amongst them was
> regarding a proposal we received to extend network Developer tools to
> emulate time-variant network conditions to assist web app testing (e.g.
> either emulating real world trace or user defined traces).
>
>
>
> Background:
>
> I would like to follow up from where we left. The Web Performance WG
> Chairs expressed interest and asked us to share any links, when available..
>
> Pls. refer to minutes <
> https://w3c.github.io/web-performance/meetings/2020/2020-10-TPAC/index.html#h.8gfnc7p4nih
> >
>
> I quote - “Yoav: Network trace idea sounds interesting in context of
> synthetic testing, but possibly orthogonal to this. If you could share
> links that'd be great.”
>
>
>
> Info:
>
> The IG Members proposing this tool has made a simple Proof-of-concept,
> which also integrates into Browser Developer Tools (it’s a very basic
> implementation with just one parameter viz., DL bandwidth).
>
> For more details, take a look at the demo video available on TPAC 2020
> website @  <https://www.w3.org/2020/10/TPAC/wn-lpp.html>
>
> Source codes and other info. are available on Github at  <
> https://github.com/intel/lpp-network-trace>
>
>
>
> Upcoming Event:
>
> We plan to have the team make a presentation in our upcoming Web &
> Networks IG meeting in early March ’21 (date yet to be finalised).. We can
> share the Webex details, if anyone would like join us. Kindly let me know..
> I can work with the W3C Staff to forward the Webex Details, once the dates
> are finalised.
>
>
>
> Request:
>
> The team is seeking inputs and W3C engagement from interested members to
> add more features (emulate time variant latency, UL BW, etc), define trace
> format, Network Developer Tools UI, etc.
>
> Our Interest Group is looking for feedback about this tool proposal and
> whether it fits in the broader scheme of things for Browsers. We would be
> happy to answer any queries using this email thread.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Sudeep
>
> Co-Chair, Web & Networks IG
>
> (sent on behalf of IG WNIG Co-Chairs & W3C Staff in CC)
>
>
>
>