- From: Philippe Le Hegaret <plh@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 03:07:11 +0900
- To: public-web-perf <public-web-perf@w3.org>
Available at
http://www.w3.org/2015/10/25-webperf-minutes.html
Text version:
Web Performance Working Group Face-to-face
26 Oct 2015
See also: [2]agenda, [3]IRC log
[2] https://bit.ly/perf-tpac15
[3] http://www.w3.org/2015/10/25-webperf-irc
Attendees
Present
Yoav, plh, Ilya, Todd, Ryosuke, Alex (afternoon),
Xiaoqian (afternoon), Bartek, Mark (morning)
Regrets
Chair
Ilya & Todd
Scribe
Yoav
Contents
1. [4]Overview
2. [5]HR timing 2
3. [6]Performance Timeline
4. [7]Memory API
5. [8]Intersection Observer
__________________________________________________________
Overview
igrigorik: 10000 feet view of WebPerfWG
[9]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZKW9N0cteHgK91SyYQONFuy2
ZW6J4Oak398niTo232E/edit
[9]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZKW9N0cteHgK91SyYQONFuy2ZW6J4Oak398niTo232E/edit
High resolution time is the foundation of the WebPerf APIs
we recently made sure that it works well with both window and
worker
igrigorik: translateTime recently added to HRT
<plh> [10]https://w3c.github.io/hr-time/
[10] https://w3c.github.io/hr-time/
igrigorik: we also have a problem with people finding the old
version of HRT rather than the new one
... The next big chunk is performance timeline
[11]http://www.w3.org/TR/performance-timeline-2/
[11] http://www.w3.org/TR/performance-timeline-2/
PerformanceObserver was added. It enables to subscribe to
notifications about various metrics
ResourceTiming: pretty simple and not many recent updates
[12]https://w3c.github.io/resource-timing/
[12] https://w3c.github.io/resource-timing/
Navigation Timing is being refactored to be based on resource
timing
[13]https://w3c.github.io/navigation-timing/
[13] https://w3c.github.io/navigation-timing/
igrigorik: There are fetches that are multiple fetches under
the hood, and we need to figure out a way to un-mush that
todd: We need to figure out a way to so that securely
igrigorik: user timing, some cleanups but no major changes
Server-timing - no implimentations today
todd: the main blocker there is trailer headers
igrigorik: without trailers a lot of the use cases are lost
[14]http://www.w3.org/TR/server-timing/
[14] http://www.w3.org/TR/server-timing/
mnot: there is pushback about supporting trailers in browsers
<plh> fun fact:
[15]https://w3c.github.io/server-timing/#the-performanceservert
iming-interface actually defines an interface called
"ServerTiming"
[15]
https://w3c.github.io/server-timing/#the-performanceservertiming-interface
igrigorik: we could just expose certain headers (e.g. server
timing) there, and not generic support for exerything
todd: ServerTiming can be done, but would be more interesting
with trailers
igrigorik: server timing spec has been stable for a while, but
we could convert it to performance observer
todd: Agreed, but we'd need to be able to define it for the
navigation request
igrigorik: as long as you register the perfObserver early, you
could do that
todd: would be great if there was a declarative way to do that
FrameTiming: recently changed so that frameTiming only measured
frames that exceeded their budget
The whole spec addressed a big gap that we have regarding
measuring run time
rniwa: when we looked at frame timing, it didn't make much
sense.
todd: the recent spec matches RAF much more closely, and the
compositor references are now gone
rniwa: intersection observer could have also be used to measure
something like that
igrigorik: Beacon API currently based on fetch
couple of open issues
we need to send different payloads, which may trigger CORS
preflights and questions RE credentials
preload - we'd done a few loop around the track on how to
determine priority. It's been addressed with hooks into fetch.
Exposed as the `as` attribute
igrigorik: originally, preload was part of resource hints, but
now it's split into its own spec, since is has mandatory
semantics
Resource hints - preconnect is shipped, and used by some Google
properties
dns-prefetch, prefetch, prerender mostly retro-speccing the
implemented bits
igrigorik: prefetch and prerender are highly heuristic, and
hard to predict as a developer when they'd kick off
... in the spec we talk about downgrading resource hints, but
it doesn't look like any of the implementations do that
todd: What we've seen with internal properties, it takes them a
lot of time to experiement and figure these hints out
rniwa: maybe developer tools could help us there
bartek: Would it be possible for regular developers which parts
of the draft are implemented and shipped?
igrigorik: plh has a implementation document
NEL - no current implementation in Chrome, Firefox are looking
into it
igrigorik: Working with Mike West on a reporting API, so that
we can report NEL, CSP, HSTS and everything else
bartek: Would be interesting to have that info in DNS headers
so that the browser can know what the reporting URL is
igrigorik: so once the reporting API would be in place, we'd
reactor NEL based on that
requestIdleCallback - used to run some code at idle time so
that it won't get in the way
todd: Page Visibility enables developers to know if the current
tab is visible
there was some dicussion about out-of-view iframes, but we
didn't move forward with that
todd: one last item is CPU and memory monitoring, but it can be
tricky for security reasons
igrigorik: we've been talking in Chrome about killing the
onunload event
on mobile you should listen to page visibility rather than
onunload
igrigorik: and since it's broken in many browsers, we could
just remove it, since devs can't rely on it
todd: this also means that the page visibility API may rise in
importance
plh: we can add a section to the spec to talk about that
rniwa: when the users switch a task, focus and blur is changed,
and currently not specified anywhere
igrigorik: might be specified in the HTML spec, but not
implemented in a consistent way
<plh> Yoav: how about visibility metrics? need paint observers?
<plh> rniwa: interested as well. we don't know what's important
for each page
Other items discussed: Declerative way to improve first paint
and prevent CSS blocking
igrigorik: profiler API would be interesting
todd: it'd be interesting to expose how well the Web page
performs on the machine it's working on
igrigorik: There's a proposal for interventions in Chrome, so
that the browser can break the API contracts in some cases, in
order to improve the user experience
part of that is signaling to the origin that the intervention
took place
which loops back to the reporting API
we could observe the lifecycle of the page and at the end send
back a report
rniwa: it's usually more interesting to have aggregate data
igrigorik: that depends. In some cases that's true, and in some
cases it's interesting to have granular data
yoav: in terms of out-of-band reporting, it might be
interesting to expose that to users eventually
HR timing 2
plh: What do we do with the spec? there are no implementations
of translateTime
igrigorik: it can be polyfilled
plh: who is exposing performance.now in workers?
igrigorik: Chrome is
todd: workerStart is tied to service worker, where
translateTime is realted to workers in general
plh: Should we not ship translateTime in the spec?
todd: we could publish without translateTime, and then publish
translateTime in the next release
plh: so we just need to make sure we have a test that tests the
worker support
... so the goal is to push HR time 2 to REC, but without
translateTime.
*Discussion about [16]https://github.com/w3c/hr-time/pull/14
[16] https://github.com/w3c/hr-time/pull/14
<plh> The term <dfn>current document</dfn> refers to the
document associated with the Window object's newest Document
object
<plh> The term <dfn>current document</dfn> refers to the Window
object's newest Document object
Everyone: Let's just add a note referring to the bug on HTML
<plh> The term <dfn>current document</dfn> refers to the
Document object returned by Window.odocument
<plh> The term <dfn>current document</dfn> refers to the
Document object returned by Window.document
todd: second issue [17]https://github.com/w3c/hr-time/issues/15
[17] https://github.com/w3c/hr-time/issues/15
this will be resolved once we'd publish the new spec
plh: Need to do the "great renaming" where the old spec changes
urls
... Also, we can push current spec to CR with translateTime "at
risk" so that we can later add it in once implementations catch
up
Performance Timeline
plh: the biggest issue is from resource timing and navigation
timing
in both we have "clear" which when based on PerfTimeline does
nothing
<plh> [18]https://pad.w3ctag.org/p/pt-buffer
[18] https://pad.w3ctag.org/p/pt-buffer
If we only register perfObserver at the head of HTML, you're
racing and might miss some resources
todd: For frame timing, it's defined as not injecting to the
timeline, but only emits performanceObserver
igrigorik: We agree that all API should be based on
PerformanceObserver. I think that some APIs don't need a buffer
in addition to that
btu in some cases, we need a buffer - especially for resource
timing and keeping track of resources that may finish loading
before perfObserver registration is done
todd: perhaps the way to get perfObserver on everything is to
have an initial buffer, and then the first event grabs
everything from that buffer and onto PerfObserver
plh: I don't think we can change getEntries() because they are
heavily used
It would be interesting to polyfill them using perfObserver
todd: that makes sense.
*discussion about eliminating buffers entirely, getting an
initial buffer in place, etc
plh: if we could remove the setResourceTiming size, it'd make
it easier to just define a start buffer
igrigorik: we could also limit buffering up until the onload
event
so that users in their registration would read the buffer and
then start observing from that point on
yoav: there's some race condition here if users read first and
register later
plh: yeah, but if they register first, we're all good
rniwa: it'd much nicer to have a flag so that when you register
the observer, you get all the past entries as well
todd: so that browsers that haven't implemented getEntries()
(Safari/WebKit) never have to buffer after onload
plh: do we even need the flag?
rniwa: it makes sense for the default to be to get all the past
entries
... it might be nice to be able to filter what you want
recording
todd: currently you're getting an array and you can filter it
rniwa: in MutationObservers you can listen to a single node. It
would be nice to filter based on a single resource
igrigorik: Alex Russel also wants to be able to query the img
resource related to a single DOM element
todd: We can tell with initiator type, but not everything
yoav: how would that data be useful? If you have multiple
elements referring a resource, it's still a single entry for a
single fetch
rniwa: anyway, it would be nice to be able to filter based on
an element
todd: we can filter by name
plh: but we don't allow filtering by name on perfObserver
igrigorik: It's a list, and devs can just ".filter" on it
plh: getEntriesByType("resource") was added so that you don't
need to create the JS types for anything that won't go into the
JS list
todd: That's not necessarily a concern today
igrigorik: Nat Duca supported adding the GetEntriesBy* when we
were talking about thousands of entries
for a smaller number, it might not make sense
todd: we see 3 getEntries() for every 2 getEntriesByType() for
0 getEntriesByName()
plh: We can't remove these methods, but we can move them to a
historical section
todd: We should wait with deprecation until we have a
replacement specced and shipped in enough browsers
plh: so let's promote perfObserver in a way that could one day
used to replace getEntries*
igrigorik: so let's imagine we only had perfObserver. We could
tell developers to add a shim that emulates getEntries*
* Discussion on Performance Observer and {how/if} we can
obsolete the getEntries* methods
* Overall discussion tends to get rid of getEntries* from
perfObserver
todd: FrameTiming was defined to not buffer, but maybe in the
initial buffer model we want to buffer it
igrigorik: so until onload we buffer anything. We can also have
some opt-in to only buffer certain types.
rniwa: buffering is not expensive, but measuring can be
expensive so an opt-in would be useful
igrigorik: FWIW, today RT and NT already measure and it works
fine without huge overhead
todd: Let's separate frame timing from perfObserver for the
moment and discuss that separately
igrigorik: so to keep things simple, the buffer buffers
everything up until onload
... to complicate things further, fetch registry might also add
resource timing that is unbound
todd: that's an issue for the fetch spec to deal with
for our purposes, the "up to onload" buffer can probably be
bound to 500
* Discussion about some opt-in for PerfObserver
discussion on perfObserver's buffer queueing logic
conclusions:
* Some buffering is required in order to not miss events
* onload gives us the ability to register to PerfObservers from
async scripts
* opt-in would save us from having to measure and queue
* Mandatory inline script registrations would allow us to
buffer significantly less
* There's a problem there if we have multiple PerfObservers
registering
igrigorik have taken a screenshot of the whiteboard
Memory API
<ToddReifsteck> Memory info API thoughts from
Ilya--[19]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tFCEOMOUg4zmqeHNg
1Xo11Xpdm7Bmxl5y98_ESLCLgM/edit#
[19]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tFCEOMOUg4zmqeHNg1Xo11Xpdm7Bmxl5y98_ESLCLgM/edit
igrigorik: different implementations can report different
things, developers might micro-optimize to implementation
details
under-reporting browsers would look better
* Going over use-cases from the doc
two distinct use cases:
regression detection - seeing if your app memory usage
increases over time
adaptation - serving a different, lighter version of your site
to devices that cannot deal with the full version
todd: How would we register to getting memory reports?
plh: could be a performance entry
igrigorik: proposal is just to get an event with a performance
entry with heap size and an "underPressure" boolean
... should we add other metrics? canvas size, media buffers (if
we're willing to expose it)
an underPressure event would be a signal to the app that some
of their users are under memory pressure in the wild
plh: the goal is to allow the application to send a beacon up
todd: and to turn things off
another goal is to be able to send up memory increases so that
apps can keep an eye on memory increases
igrigorik: Another case is getting crash reports
yoav: we also need a way to detect low-end devices relatively
up-front so that Web sites can load light versions of their
sites for devices that can't handle more than that
plh: there would be privacy issues with exact numbers
rniwa: we could clip the numbers to the hundreds of MBs to
avoid privacy concerns
Intersection Observer
slightlyoff: the proposal comes from traces of 3rd party
content, what making Web sites slow, battery use & jank
A lot comes from third party that try to see where things are
on screen
use cases:
dealy loading of content, with scroll events
analytics and ads networks
(forcing sync layout every 100ms or so)
the bad version of that creates plugins that measures things
inside the viewport
IntersectionObserver lets you know how if an element that you
care about hits the viewport
that answers this use case, plus enables lazy loading
It can report the top level viewport, or to report when the
observed element overlaps another element
The information is async delivered and you might miss a thread
or two
because multi-threading is hard
so you set an observer on an element and get notified when that
element enters the viewport
with that you can meet the ad network guidelines, so ads can
implement their thing using that
plh: Would that API be able to tell you if an element is
visible?
slightlyoff: Only to an approximation
plh: iframes?
slightlyoff: There's a good chance that this would give you
that
it can't cover if an element was hidden by a different element
slightlyoff: time is relative to the generator which may be the
compositor
there can be some skew
igrigorik: about privacy and timing attack
rniwa: if it's async, there's no risk for timing attack
slightlyoff: about approximation of meaningful paint, the first
intersection observer may more or less correlate with the
meaningful first paint
there can be delay between layout and paint in some browsers.
Also images that are painted to a viewport element won't be
visible to that API
rniwa: we could also have elements that are in the viewport but
never painted due to fast scrolling
... The real metric people want is when things got painted
slightlyoff: That's a metric that we can add. File an issue on
the repo
rniwa: It would be great to correlate that info with frame
timing in order to figure out which elements trigger jank
slightlyoff: the times are not correlated
igrigorik: the important thing is that you should be able to
translate between that time and the current document time.
todd: We've had some push back for Page Visibility 2 on iframe
visibility, but now with IntersectionObserver, maybe there's a
chance to get that
rniwa: So the idea is the attach intersection observers to
iframes if the user attached to the iframe's page visibility?
maybe, even if the async nature is making this harder
let's wait for intersection observer to be a thing before
making decisions on that
slightlyoff: some things are weirdly split between resource
timing and navigation timing
It seems odd that there's no way to get from an element to the
relevant timing. It's hard to tie the DOM and the timing back
together
if there's evidence that this is something people do, it'd be
good to add that back to the platform
rniwa: it would be nice to get a timing back from an element
todd: the theory is that most analytics poll the timeline
regularly, so that instead of timers, PerfObservers would
enable to receive events as they arrive
slightlyoff: they poll frequently in order to avoid data loss
igrigorik: it's both. You need to observe when things have
changed. Then, if you delay it too long, you may lose it
... one more issue is about resources that send more than one
request: preflights, redirects
we can probably unbundle that
slightlyoff: so will the APIs continue to evolve or are they
done
igrigorik: they'd continue to evolve in small ways, but most of
the data is there
rniwa: could we agregate the data?
igrigorik: there are several agregation implementation out
there, but they're all different so there's no single way we'd
want to stardize
todd: getEntriesByType(navigation) is not implemented in
Firefox and Chrome
slightlyoff: Regarding attribution, it would be significantly
easier to be able to get the element(s) back from the timing
entries
the list of elements could be populated at query time
todd: It's interesting to look into the use cases and see if we
can limit the attribution to resources that would satisfy the
use-cases
slightlyoff: it may also be interesting to attribute download
initiation to other resources/timing/elements
<igrigorik>
[20]http://www.webpagetest.org/breakdownTimeline.php?test=15102
6_HS_DQ1&run=2&cached=0
http://www.webpagetest.org/breakdownTimeline.php?test=151026_HS_DQ1&run=2&cached=0
* Discussion about an API that would expose what the main
thread have been doing for RUM
it's possible that just decorating frame timing with that data
would be enough to get that data in the hands of users
rniwa: also, it's possible that GC time and layout times can be
cheaply measured and exposed
exposing layout time can expose timing events if you wouldn't
limit precision
todd: system profiling api is interesting, but we don't have
conclusive data that it's needed
igrigorik: Let's add some of this to frame timing, and then see
Received on Wednesday, 28 October 2015 18:07:18 UTC