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Fw: Re : Re: [W3C Web and TV IG] Adaptive streaming MPEG DASH liaison

From: Gerard Fernando <gerardmxf@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:25:51 +0000 (GMT)
Message-ID: <543190.16748.qm@web24008.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
To: Kazuyuki Ashimura <ashimura@w3.org>
Cc: Mark Watson <watsonm@netflix.com>, Steve Lhomme <slhomme@matroska.org>, "Ali C. Begen \(abegen\)" <abegen@cisco.com>, Gerard Fernando <gerardmxf@yahoo.co.uk>, juhani.huttunen@nokia.com, public-web-and-tv@w3.org, 김진필 <jinpil1991.kim@lge.com>, 이현재 <hj08.lee@lge.com>, Gerard Fernando <gerardmxf@yahoo.co.uk>, rob.glidden@sbcglobal.net
Hello Kazuyuki,

I think there's been some mix-up here. I thought we had reached consensus on the 
version sent by HJ (which is  attached here). You pointed to an older version. 
Can you please check and re-send the correct version. 

Best regards


----- Forwarded Message ----
From: 이현재 <hj08.lee@lge.com>
To: public-web-and-tv@w3.org
Cc: Mark Watson <watsonm@netflix.com>; Steve Lhomme <slhomme@matroska.org>; Ali 
C. Begen (abegen) <abegen@cisco.com>; Gerard Fernando <gerardmxf@yahoo.co.uk>; 
juhani.huttunen@nokia.com; public-web-and-tv@w3.org; 김진필 
<jinpil1991.kim@lge.com>; 이현재 <hj08.lee@lge.com>
Sent: Sun, 20 March, 2011 20:05:48
Subject: Re : Re: [W3C Web and TV IG] Adaptive streaming MPEG DASH liaison

Dear  IG members and interested participants,
Thanks for the  active discussion so far. 
I tried to merge  majority opinion for better correspondence.
It might still  be unsatisfactory to some opinion, however, please accept this 
as the starting  between the two important standard bodies. 

If there are no  serious concern on this version, I'll send it to MPEG 
around Tuesday.
Best regards,
 Hyeonjae Lee
DTV Research Lab, 
LG Electronics, Seoul, Korea
Office : +82-2-2102-0234
Mobile: +82-10-3388-9783

---------- Original Message ----------

From : public-web-and-tv@w3.org
To : Mark Watson <watsonm@netflix.com>
Cc : Steve Lhomme <slhomme@matroska.org>, Ali C. Begen \(abegen\) 
<abegen@cisco.com>, Gerard Fernando <gerardmxf@yahoo.co.uk>, 
juhani.huttunen@nokia.com, 이현재 수석연구원(hj08.lee), public-web-and-tv@w3.org
Date : 11/3/20 6:43:14
Subject : Re: [W3C Web and TV IG] Adaptive streaming MPEG DASH liaison

As a RAND standard, DASH seems entirely above-board, with its references, 
wordings, months-long patent calls and so forth.  I for one see no fault in the 
prospect of a RAND result from a RAND process, that's the idea after all.

But for royalty-free "hopes" to be shunted to parsing whether "indispensible" 
means "essential", proving negatives, breath-holding, "believing" etc etc, all 
while any official process is delayed ...  

... yes, even too-slick by half.  Unhappiness warranted, just misplaced.  There 
is every right and reason to expect ISO (and W3C) to support royalty-free work 
along lines:

When you begin, don't put it in.
When in doubt, throw it out.
When you're done, recheck with everyone.


On 3/19/2011 10:50 AM, Mark Watson wrote: 
Sent from my iPad
>On Mar 19, 2011, at 10:24 AM, "Rob Glidden" <rob.glidden@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>ISO disclosure obligations are clearly documented at 
>>http://www.itscj.ipsj.or.jp/sc29/29w7proc.htm.  Short incomplete 
>>summary: proposers, preparers and liaisons "shall", participants 
>>"should", non-participants "may", multiple other shalls and shall nots.
>>Slickly-worded AFAIKs to the contrary, DASH as-is has multiple 
>>patent-disclosed normative references (and outstanding patent call).
I'm sorry, but I am not trying to deceive anyone here and I'm not especially 
happy with that accusation.

Can you tell me a single disclosed essential patent on DASH itself ? Of course, 
if you use it with H.264 or other codecs or containers with patents of their own 
then you will be subject to those. And of course the DASH specification has 
normative references to those things, but they are not essential to DASH.

The technology actually in the DASH specification for manifest formats isn't yet 
subject to any patent disclosures that I have am aware of and I would expect to 
be aware of them. I qualify my statements only because I am not a lawyer and 
this is all legally sensitive stuff.  

For one, the UK Intellectual Property Office offers a freedom-to-operate 
>search service, but there are many private services.
>"[G]ood reasons to hope for an outcome" and 
>"requirements/recommendations should be reasonable and also provide a 
>basis for discussion/negotiation and not require a yes/no answer" look 
>like code for a belief that W3C should bend its royalty-free policy.  I 
Well, just to be clear, am not proposing any change to that policy. My proposed 
text to MPEG asks companies explicitly whether they offer terms such that DASH 
could be used given the W3C policy. I just don't think that necessarily implies 
a formal option 1 process at this stage.


>On 3/19/2011 2:54 AM, Steve Lhomme wrote:
>On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 11:12 PM, Mark Watson<watsonm@netflix.com>  wrote:
>>There are no known patents AFAIK. If someone turns up with a solid patent
>>>and insists they deserve royalties for it, then I've no doubt it will be
>>>profiled out. But we are nowhere close to that yet and it's unlikely anyway
>>>for the reasons I've described. We should not assume we are in that
>>>situation unless and until we actually get there, that is all.
>If I find such a patent, should I disclose it ? And even if there is
>none known as of today, what is the guarantee there won't be one
>published tomorrow ? In which case the patent holder may well seek
>retribution from a booming business. Among the companies/organisations
>there will be those who can afford to pay anyway, and those who can't
>and will have to abandon the technology and still being threatened for
>having used it in the past, and leave the market to those who can
>What are the guarantees that this cannot happen ? Is the MPEG, 3GPP
>and/or W3C responsible for doing a deep patent search to make sure it
>can be declared royalty free ?
>Side Note: shouldn't it be a service provided by patent offices anyway ?

Received on Monday, 21 March 2011 22:26:29 UTC

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