- From: Michael Pluke <Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com>
- Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2013 13:53:40 -0400
- To: Peter Korn <peter.korn@oracle.com>
- CC: Gregg Vanderheiden <gv@trace.wisc.edu>, "public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org" <public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <5735ED0D92A3E6469F161EB41E7C28A854C61B729C@MAILR001.mail.lan>
I am now finalising the survey for Friday. We are clearly not reaching consensus here at the moment. I have two options:
- Omit this item from the survey and hope we achieve an internal consensus later - and maybe issue a 2nd one-item survey.
- Proceed NOW with what we already have on the page that Peter wrote.
- I prefer the latter option - so I would like to cite that in the survey.
In this case, as the one thing we seem to agree upon is that we all like some variant of #3a. I therefore propose that:
- the page is renamed as "New glossary term "accessibility services of platform software"
- The red title is changed to "Proposals #3: "accessibility services of platform software" (if we remove the 3a and 3b variants or, if we wish to retain those it will have to be "Proposal# 4" (I suggest we entirely forget the 3a/3b ideas)
- In the text under that heading the second paragraph is removed
- In the last paragraph the "In both cases," is removed and the final text in quotes in that paragraph is corrected to ""accessibility services of platform software".
- Variant 3b is removed.
Could you please make those changes Peter (I don't trust my Google Docs editing (non-)skills.
Best regards
Mike
From: Peter Korn [mailto:peter.korn@oracle.com]
Sent: 05 June 2013 18:34
To: Michael Pluke
Cc: Gregg Vanderheiden; public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org
Subject: Re: Two variants for the redefinition of "accessibility services of software"
Mike, Gregg,
I have some trouble by the "services ... used by ... non-Web documents", as that confers a level of agency that I don't see present in non-software documents.
A DAISY book doesn't use the accessibility services in the DAISY reader. The DAISY reader extracts & displays the captions from the DAISY file. There is no code in a DAISY file. The captions are encoded in DAISY; they are extracted by the user agent (the DAISY player). An HTML5 player, complete with Javascript & perhaps other code, is software.
Gregg - you write below: A user agent is already "platform software" so we can't say "other platform software or user agents"
Where do we say this?
We define user agent<http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#keyterms_ua> as "any software that retrieves and presents documents for users". So a user agent is software. But not all software is a platform.
Some user agents are platforms, but not all. Notepad is a user agent (by our definition). How is it a platform?
Peter
On 6/5/2013 10:05 AM, Michael Pluke wrote:
I think that I could live with your suggestion of:
- services provided by an operating system, user agent, or other platform software that are used by software or non-web documents to expose information about the user interface and events to assistive technologies.
It doesn't entirely avoid the issue of whether documents can actually do things like "using" something, but I think that the meaning of the above is definitely clear enough for me.
Best regards
Mike
From: Gregg Vanderheiden [mailto:gv@trace.wisc.edu]
Sent: 05 June 2013 17:21
To: Michael Pluke
Cc: Peter Korn; public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org<mailto:public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Two variants for the redefinition of "accessibility services of software"
hmmm
I see where you are going -- and I kind of like it but I'm not sure what the SOFTWARE is that is right after "used by"
What software is that? the user agent? then the user agent is providing the service to itself?
I think the user agent provides the service to the non-web document.
- for example - a daisy book (epub 3 book now) uses the accessibility services in the epub player to expose its captions (for captioned material) etc, and uses the Operating System accessibility services to have the book read aloud. (or actually the ebook may use the epub reader/player for everything and the epub reader may (or may not) make use of accessibility services in the OS (may not - because they may decide to do it all themselves).
in any case, the ebook (a non-web document) is using the accessibility services of the reader (a user agent)
the language for this would then be
- services provided by an operating system or other platform software including user agents that are used by software or non-web documents to expose information about the user interface and events to assistive technologies
or perhaps easier to read
- services provided by an operating system, user agent, or other platform software that are used by software or non-web documents to expose information about the user interface and events to assistive technologies
A user agent is already "platform software" so we can't say "other platform software or user agents" . That is like saying or other engineer or electrical engineer.
Make sense?
Gregg
--------------------------------------------------------
Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D.
Director Trace R&D Center
Professor Industrial & Systems Engineering
and Biomedical Engineering University of Wisconsin-Madison
Technical Director - Cloud4all Project - http://Cloud4all.info
Co-Director, Raising the Floor - International - http://Raisingthefloor.org
and the Global Public Inclusive Infrastructure Project - http://GPII.net
On Jun 5, 2013, at 12:09 PM, Michael Pluke <Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com<mailto:Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com>> wrote:
Would the following, slightly more verbose, wording work for everyone?
- services provided by an operating system, other platform software, or a user agent that are used by software to expose information about the user interface and events, of software or non-web documents, to assistive technologies
&! nbsp;&nb sp;
It is a little cumbersome and Peter might argue that the "of software or non-web documents" is not needed - but it does at least address that software is the thing that uses services.
Mike
From: Peter Korn [mailto:peter.korn@oracle.com<http://oracle.com>]
Sent: 05 June 2013 16:58
To: Gregg Vanderheiden
Cc: Michael Pluke; public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org<mailto:public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Two variants for the redefinition of "accessibility services of software"
Gregg,
Let me try this another way:
Software contains at least logic statements - things like "if-then". Software processes input, generates output. In contrast, markup (like HTML, which some people call "code" but I would simply say "is an encoding") doesn't contain such logic. It doesn't actually process input. It isn't the thing that generates the output (it may bethe output, but that is different).
So: if something is software - e.g. Javascript in a web application - then it is software. It is covered by the existing text. If something is NOT software - e.g. a static web page - then it is only a document (with whatever markup), and so it is only the user agent that is taking advantage of "accessibility services" or "other software APIs".
Make sense?
Also, I disagree with your statement below. All software does in fact make use of some form of platform services. Even software that only calculates the Fibonacci series and prints the result or writes it to a file. It is using some platform service to print the result, to open/write to the file. In fact, even software that does no i/o is using some platform service just to be loaded into memory. Many kinds of software don't have a visual UI (daemon services for example), and so aren't covered by WCAG2ICT and don't have any reason to use platform accessibility services. But they all use some kind of platform non-accessibility service.
As to "pure HTML/markup" documents that have form fields: again, there is no logic there. The user agent does the logic. The user agent notices the click (or <ENTER>) on the "submit" button, etc. If you really want to push things and say that the markup contains some logic (mapping the submit button to a particular new URL so that the "if-then" of "if click then go to page" logic is in the markup), I'll grant you an edge case. But again, there is so little logic there, and the HTML isn'tactively utilizing any accessibility APIs, etc. I find this a much cleaner distinction to make.
Note by the way, we had this same problem/discussion in TEITAC.
Peter
On 6/5/2013 8:31 AM, Gregg Vanderheiden wrote:
Hi Peter
Not ALL non-web documents do (and not ALL Software makes use of platform services). But since SOME do , it needs to be in the definition - No? .
If you want to put SOME in front of non-web documents and MOST in front of software that is fine. But not necessary.
Actually don't most ALL non-web documents that have user interface components in them expose them through user agent services? Doesn't all AT access the content via the user agent ? (or can they access content on non-web documents that are not opened in a user agent?)
Gregg
--------------------------------------------------------
Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D.
Director Trace R&D Center
Professor Industrial & Systems Engineering
and Biomedical Engineering University of Wisconsin-Madison
Technical Director - Cloud4all Project - http://Cloud4all.info
Co-Director, Raising the Floor - International - http://Raisingthefloor.org
and the Global Public Inclusive Infrastructure Project - http://GPII.net
On Jun 5, 2013, at 11:26 AM, Peter Korn <peter.korn@oracle.com<mailto:peter.korn@oracle.com>> wrote:
Wading in...
While I see many (though not all) user agents as being platforms (hence Note 1 in platform software), I don't see all (or even most) documents as utilizing "a set of software services". Since software services are APIs, and it is programming code that invokes APIs, documents that don't contain programming code (e.g. a simple text document) by definition cannot use those APIs, and so by definition don't use software services.
Recall the WCAG2ICT definition of user agent<http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#keyterms_ua> - it is the thing that "retrieves and presents documents". That thing clearly parses the documents - gets whatever markup is in them, etc. - and then utilizes the accessibility services of the platform underneath it. Where that user agent is also a platform (Adobe Flash, Microsoft Silverlight, a web browser running Javascript code, a Java runtime), it also is a platform. But Notepad and Wordpad aren't platforms. They are, however, by our definition, user agents.
Make sense?
Given that, I would not insert the text "non-Web documents" as Gregg is proposing.
Peter
On 6/5/2013 7:50 AM, Michael Pluke wrote:
I guess conceptually from a WCAG point of view that is the case.
It seems that I have a persistent problem seeing how lines of code in document (e.g. Web page, word doc) can, in reality, do anything like "expose information". To me it is clear that it is the user agent that takes the web page/document and "exposes information about the user interface (as encoded in the page/document) to assistive technologies." Although conceptually the user agent may offer its services to the document, I still struggle to see what a document, or anything else that is not software, can do with this offer. Surely only software can actually do things - and that is why all documents need a user agent to do things.
But I guess I will have to learn to live with this conceptual myopia (if that is what it is) - as long as everyone else is comfortable with what you have written. Certainly your text is simple and clear.
I would still prefer to see the notes in their original order.
Best regards
Mike
From: Gregg Vanderheiden [mailto:gv@trace.wisc.edu]
Sent: 05 June 2013 15:14
To: Michael Pluke
Cc: Peter Korn; public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org<mailto:public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Two variants for the redefinition of "accessibility services of software"
On Jun 5, 2013, at 10:07 AM, Michael Pluke <Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com<mailto:Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com>> wrote:
I'm not so certain whether this addition is needed. In my mind it is always software that actually uses the services that the platform provides. In the case of non-web documents I see it as being the user agent that uses the services to "expose information about the user interface to assistive technologies". So I do not see that it is necessary to add non-web documents to the first definition. For the second it is more complex as I see the user agent using the services to expose information about the user interface of both the user agent AND the document to assistive technologies. In this case it might be OK to stick with Peter's original wording or it might be necessary to craft something much more complex.
Did you not see that USER AGENT is an example of platform?
All browsers are platforms.
I realise that I am far less experienced at interpreting the underlying WCAG 2.0 model of content and user agents, so I accept that my interpretation may be wrong - but I think that expert eyes need to look again at Peter's original definitions and Gregg's amendments.
In either case I do not think that reversing the notes as Gregg has done adds clarity to the original (it either has no effect or, in my view, makes it marginally less good).
In constructing the survey I will point to the place where Peter has written the original proposals. If we can resolve some alternative text before the survey is sent out, then this text needs to be changed (preferably by Peter or Gregg who are adept with editing the wiki).
Best regards
Mike
From: Gregg Vanderheiden [mailto:gv@trace.wisc.edu<http://trace.wisc.edu/>]
Sent: 05 June 2013 04:27
To: Peter Korn
Cc: public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org<mailto:public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Two variants for the redefinition of "accessibility services of software"
very nice
only one thing I think needs to be fixed.
You discuss user agents as an example but don't have non-web documents anywhere in either.
also
Below are the same text with NON WEB DOCUMENTS in the correct places
Because both notes contain User agents and virtual machines -- I think it reads better to reverse them (as shown below) (I didn't fix the note numbering so you can see the switch)
Very nice
gregg
platform software
The term platform software, as used in WCAG2ICT, has the meaning below:
platform software
collection of software components that run on an underlying software or hardware layer, and that provides a set of software services to applications OR NON-WEB DOCUMENTS that allow them to be isolated from the underlying software or hardware layer
Note 2: Sometimes platform software is also a software application (e.g. a user agent or a virtual machine).
Note 1: Examples of platform software include operating systems, user agents, and virtual machines.
accessibility services of platform software
The term accessibility services of platform software, as used in WCAG2ICT, has the meaning below:
accessibility services of platform software
services provided by platform software that are used by software OR NON-WEB DOCUMENTS to expose information about the user interface to assistive technologies
Note 1: These services are commonly provided in the form of accessibility APIs (application programming interfaces), and they provide two-way communication with assistive technologies, including exposing information about objects and events.
Note 2: Platform software that is also an application may simply expose the accessibility services of the underlying platform layer, rather expose its own set of accessibility services. Alternately it may translate between the set it exposes and those of the underlying platform layer.
Gregg
--------------------------------------------------------
Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D.
Director Trace R&D Center
Professor Industrial & Systems Engineering
and Biomedical Engineering University of Wisconsin-Madison
Technical Director - Cloud4all Project - http://Cloud4all.info<http://cloud4all.info/>
Co-Director, Raising the Floor - International - http://Raisingthefloor.org<http://raisingthefloor.org/>
and the Global Public Inclusive Infrastructure Project - http://GPII.net<http://gpii.net/>
On Jun 4, 2013, at 8:46 PM, Peter Korn <peter.korn@oracle.com<mailto:peter.korn@oracle.com>> wrote:
Hi gang,
Coming out of our last meeting on 31June13, I have taken a whack at redefining "accessibility services of software" to make more central the concept that this is about platform software, and not all software generally.
Please see Proposal #3 at New glossary term "accessibility services of software and assistive technology"<https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/edits-for-michael-post-2nd-public-draft/new-glossary-term-accessibility-services-of-software-and-assistive-technology>
In particular, please see both Variant #3a in which I keep our existing definition text, but simply change the title of the term to "accessibility services of platform software"; and then see Variant #3b in which I introduce yet another new term: "platform software", when I then leverage in next text for the retitled term "accessibility services of platform software".
Fundamentally Variant #3a is the more minimal / less invasive change, while Variant #3b makes fuller use of the "teachable moment" that our Technical Report affords us. Please also note the section For reference, from ISO 13066-1 at the bottom of that wiki page, from which I draw on (but do not expressly mimic) that ISO text. While it is somewhat tempting to lift definitions word for word from ISO 13066-1, those definitions leverage terms & concentps that have slightly different existing definitions in WCAG 2.0 (e.g. AT), and I am also unclear on whether such copying is of a copyright ISO standard is OK in a non-ISO document such as our TR.
Below both variants on the wiki page please see "Edits to other terms common to both Variants #3a and #3b" where I show show how the new term "accessibility services of platform software" would impact our two glossary terms "programmatically set" and "programmatically determined", as well as Principal 4 and Guideline 4.1 (the change is the same under both variants).
I personally don't have a strong preference between Variant #3a and Variant #3b - different things attract me to each of them. I solicit comments / feedback on them, ahead of a formal survey (perhaps tomorrow?) ahead of our Friday meeting. I suggest we survey both approaches (as well as the follow-on edits to those two terms, the principal, and the guideline).
Peter
--
<oracle_sig_logo.gif><http://www.oracle.com/>
Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal
Phone: +1 650 5069522<tel:+1%20650%205069522>
500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94065
<green-for-email-sig_0.gif><http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment
--
Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal
Phone: +1 650 5069522<tel:+1%20650%205069522>
500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94065
Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment
<oracle_sig_logo.gif><green-for-email-sig_0.gif>
--
<image001.gif><http://www.oracle.com>
Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal
Phone: +1 650 5069522<tel:+1%20650%205069522>
500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94065
<image002.gif><http://www.oracle.com/commitment>Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment
--
[cid:image001.gif@01CE621C.2E91DA80]<http://www.oracle.com>
Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal
Phone: +1 650 5069522<tel:+1%20650%205069522>
500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94064
[cid:image002.gif@01CE621C.2E91DA80]<http://www.oracle.com/commitment>Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment
Attachments
- image/gif attachment: image001.gif
- image/gif attachment: image002.gif
Received on Wednesday, 5 June 2013 17:54:32 UTC