Re: Recently discovered issue with WCAG2ICT definition of "document" - suggesting a new note to clarify

 

On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:22 PM, Peter Korn <peter.korn@oracle.com> wrote:

> Gregg,
> 
> Your suggestion leads to circular reasoning.
> 
> The problem with this route is then any time we have some information in some file somewhere, and that information is the source in some fashion of "content", the software that presents it becomes a user agent?  And the file becomes a document?

If the information is displayed to users -- it IS content.  and if the database contains the text and images to display -- then it HAS to contain the alternate text for the images. (The app displaying the data can't add alt text itself - it doesn’t know what they data is til display time)

So this is exactly what we WANT it to say.   

> 
> So if my virus definition file contains the names of viruses, and those names are displayed in my anti-virus program, the anti-virus program is now a user agent?  And the virus definition file is now a document?

Absolutely.   And if the virus definition files used icons instead of text to 'name' the viruses - the virus definition file would have to have alt text for those icons. 

And if there is any other non-text information to be displayed to the user-- the virus definition file would need to have the text alternative so the application could provide that text as well in a programmatically determinable way. 

> 
> 
> That makes no sense.

Make sense now?


G







> 
> 
> Peter
> 
> On 7/3/2013 6:18 PM, Gregg Vanderheiden wrote:
>> how about instead of raw - we pick up on the key distinction. 
>> 
>> (New) Note 3: Software configuration and storage files such as databases and virus definitions, as well as computer instruction files such as source code, batch/script files, and firmware, that do not present information to users through a user agent are not examples of documents.  Such files are not "information and sensory experience to be communicated to the user" and therefore are not considered content
>> 
>> 
>> If a database IS just data that a user agent displays- then it WOULD be covered.  One could argue that an html file is sourcecode for the page rendering.  Certainly the javascript is. 
>> 
>> 
>> Gregg
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>> Director Trace R&D Center
>> Professor Industrial & Systems Engineering
>> and Biomedical Engineering University of Wisconsin-Madison
>> Technical Director - Cloud4all Project - http://Cloud4all.info
>> Co-Director, Raising the Floor - International - http://Raisingthefloor.org
>> and the Global Public Inclusive Infrastructure Project -  http://GPII.net
>> 
>> On Jul 3, 2013, at 7:50 PM, Peter Korn <peter.korn@oracle.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> David,
>>> 
>>> What makes a file "raw"?  I view the situation of a program retrieving data from somewhere and presenting it within it's user interface as "content" that is displayed in software.  Said content must be accessible.  Said content could come from a database file.  Said content could be a persisted user interface (cf. SC 4.1.1).  And just like the 4.1.1 case (addressing your PS in the following e-mail), there could be information in that file that helps with accessibility (e.g. the database contains images and also ALT text for those images).
>>> 
>>> But we aren't loosing anything here - whatever is in the database that winds up being presented in a user interface is content that must be accessible.  If it isn't accessible when presented in software, WCAG2ICT catches it.  
>>> 
>>> But it doesn't make sense to try to apply all of WCAG to a database file as if it was a web page or a word processing file.  That's the point here.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Peter
>>> 
>>> On 7/3/2013 5:43 PM, David MacDonald wrote:
>>>> Just one nit...
>>>>  
>>>> Can we add the word “raw” or some other word to make it clearer...
>>>>  
>>>> ... raw storage files such as databases
>>>>  
>>>> I’m a little nervous it might make the pendulum swing the other way and some administrators might think it’s not a document if a user agent serving up content from a database on the backend...
>>>>  
>>>> Cheers
>>>> David MacDonald
>>>>  
>>>> CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
>>>>   Adapting the web to all users
>>>>             Including those with disabilities
>>>> www.Can-Adapt.com
>>>>  
>>>> From: Peter Korn [mailto:peter.korn@oracle.com] 
>>>> Sent: July-03-13 6:59 PM
>>>> To: public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org Force
>>>> Subject: Recently discovered issue with WCAG2ICT definition of "document" - suggesting a new note to clarify
>>>>  
>>>> Hi gang,
>>>> 
>>>> As part of a wider review of WCAG2ICT (asking colleagues who aren't on the Task Force to look at it), I just discovered an issue with the definition of "document".  The issue is that readers will see the term "document" and think "file", and therefore try to apply WCAG requirements to all manner of files (virus definition files and programming files were two specific concerns that came up from colleagues).
>>>> 
>>>> While our definition of "document" is based on the term "content" (which is scoped to "information and sensory experience to be communicated to the user"), I fear this fact is too easily missed.  Therefore, I propose that we add an additional Note to clarify this:
>>>> Note: Software configuration and storage files such as databases and virus definitions, as well as computer instruction files such as source code, batch/script files, and firmware, are not examples of documents.  Such files are not "information and sensory experience to be communicated to the user" and therefore are not considered content.
>>>> I have added that note in context, as proposed "(New) Note 3" in red text as part of the full definition of document, below:
>>>> 
>>>> document (as used in WCAG2ICT)
>>>> assembly of content, such as a file, set of files, or streamed media that is not part of software and that does not include its own user agent
>>>> 
>>>> Note 1: A documents always requires a user agent to present its content to the user.
>>>> 
>>>> Note 2: Letters, spreadsheets, emails, books, pictures, presentations, and movies are examples of documents.
>>>> 
>>>> (New) Note 3: Software configuration and storage files such as databases and virus definitions, as well as computer instruction files such as source code, batch/script files, and firmware, are not examples of documents.  Such files are not "information and sensory experience to be communicated to the user" and therefore are not considered content.
>>>> 
>>>> Note 34: Anything that can present its own content without involving a user agent, such as a self playing book, is not a document but is software.
>>>> 
>>>> Note 45: A single document may be composed of multiple files such as the video content, closed caption text, etc. This fact is not usually apparent to the end-user consuming the document / content. This is similar to how a single web page can be composed of content from multiple URIs (e.g. the page text, images, the JavaScript, a CSS file etc.).
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I would like to propose this edit as part of the WCAG WG review next Tuesday July 9th, so it can get into the 3rd/final public draft that we publish later in July.  
>>>> 
>>>> Any thoughts/edits before I do this as part of my WCAG WG "Ultimate? Survey" response?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Peter
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> <Mail Attachment.gif>
>>>> Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal
>>>> Phone: +1 650 5069522 
>>>> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94064 
>>>> <Mail Attachment.gif>Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> <oracle_sig_logo.gif>
>>> Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal
>>> Phone: +1 650 5069522 
>>> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94064 
>>> <green-for-email-sig_0.gif> Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment
>> 
> 
> -- 
> <oracle_sig_logo.gif>
> Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal
> Phone: +1 650 5069522 
> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94064 
> <green-for-email-sig_0.gif> Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment