RE: Definition of Documents -- OOPS - error fixed -- use this email to comment

H Michael

 

So under this definition an Adobe Binder (PDF), would be a document and not
a set of documents, Right?

http://tv.adobe.com/watch/acrobat-tips-and-tricks/combining-documents-into-a
-single-pdf/

 

Cheers,

David MacDonald

 

CanAdapt Solutions Inc.

Tel:  613.235.4902

http://ca.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100

www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/> 

   

  Adapting the web to all users

            Including those with disabilities

 

This e-mail originates from CanAdapt Solutions Inc. Any distribution, use or
copying of this e-mail or the information it contains by other than the
intended recipient(s) is unauthorized. If you are not the intended
recipient, please notify me at the telephone number shown above or by return
e-mail and delete this communication and any copy immediately. Thank you.

 

Le présent courriel a été expédié par CanAdapt Solutions Inc. Toute
distribution, utilisation ou reproduction du courriel ou des renseignements
qui s'y trouvent par une personne autre que son destinataire prévu est
interdite. Si vous avez reçu le message par erreur, veuillez m'en aviser par
téléphone (au numéro précité) ou par courriel, puis supprimer sans délai la
version originale de la communication ainsi que toutes ses copies. Je vous
remercie de votre collaboration.

 

From: Michael Pluke [mailto:Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com] 
Sent: August 22, 2013 1:30 PM
To: David MacDonald; 'Alex Li'; 'Peter Korn'; 'Gregg Vanderheiden'
Cc: 'Bailey, Bruce'; public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org; Andrew Kirkpatrick;
kirsten@can-adapt.com
Subject: RE: Definition of Documents -- OOPS - error fixed -- use this email
to comment

 

To me it means that when an appropriate user agent operates on this assembly
of content you are able to view and edit it and perform all of the other
functions that the user agent supports. I did think of “behaves as” but that
seemed to make the document sound far too active and maybe make it sound
more like software. I though the “function” was less active and implied that
when the software that is the user agent performs operations on the document
the intended function occurs.


The definition is not supposed to say anything specific about how the user
perceives the multiple chunks of content. The user will probably not see
multiple chunks, as this decomposition will most likely be hidden.

 

Best regards

 

Mike

 


From: David MacDonald [mailto:david100@sympatico.ca] 
Sent: 22 August 2013 18:21
To: Michael Pluke; 'Alex Li'; 'Peter Korn'; 'Gregg Vanderheiden'
Cc: 'Bailey, Bruce'; public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org; Andrew Kirkpatrick;
kirsten@can-adapt.com
Subject: RE: Definition of Documents -- OOPS - error fixed -- use this email
to comment

 

I’m not sure what “functions as” means… Does it mean it is read as one
entity, or perceived as one entity…

 

 

As an aside, I’m wondering what we would consider PDF document created in
Acrobat called a “binder”, 

where a number of files are combined into one entity, is this a set of
documents, or a document? 

http://tv.adobe.com/watch/acrobat-tips-and-tricks/combining-documents-into-a
-single-pdf/

 

Cheers,

David MacDonald

 

CanAdapt Solutions Inc.

Tel:  613.235.4902

http://ca.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100

www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/> 

   

  Adapting the web to all users

            Including those with disabilities

 

This e-mail originates from CanAdapt Solutions Inc. Any distribution, use or
copying of this e-mail or the information it contains by other than the
intended recipient(s) is unauthorized. If you are not the intended
recipient, please notify me at the telephone number shown above or by return
e-mail and delete this communication and any copy immediately. Thank you.

 

Le présent courriel a été expédié par CanAdapt Solutions Inc. Toute
distribution, utilisation ou reproduction du courriel ou des renseignements
qui s'y trouvent par une personne autre que son destinataire prévu est
interdite. Si vous avez reçu le message par erreur, veuillez m'en aviser par
téléphone (au numéro précité) ou par courriel, puis supprimer sans délai la
version originale de la communication ainsi que toutes ses copies. Je vous
remercie de votre collaboration.

 

From: Michael Pluke [mailto:Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com] 
Sent: August 22, 2013 1:00 PM
To: Alex Li; Peter Korn; Gregg Vanderheiden
Cc: Bailey, Bruce; public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org Force
Subject: RE: Definition of Documents -- OOPS - error fixed -- use this email
to comment

 

Sorry to be late to the debate – I have been deeply embroiled in trying to
get our WCAG2ICT-based updates agreed prior to the formal comment resolution
period. The definitions of “document” and “set of documents” are a core part
of those discussions (we haven’t even begun to tackle set of software).

 

I too really do not like the “single composition” formulation. I have not
yet introduced that wording to the team, but already two people think that
it is a term that is, as Alex says, “too esoteric”!

 

I was one who complained about the phrase “meant to” in the original
proposal. What is really important is not whether something was intended or
meant to do something (which can never be known or tested) but whether it
actually does something in practice (which can be tested).

 

So If we use the phrase:

 

"that functions as a single entity rather than a collection"

 

we should be OK. If the assembly of content does behave as a single entity
(i.e. as a document) then all is well. If it does not it is NOT a document.
This may be because the particular assembly of content  is some random
selection of items that were never intended to be a single document, or it
could be that they were intended (meant) to be a document – but someone got
it wrong at the design stage.

 

The proposed main requirement then becomes:

 

assembly of content, such as a file, set of files, or streamed media, < that
functions as a single entity rather than a collection >,  that is not part
of software, and that does not include its own user agent

 

In summary – if it looks like a document and functions as a document – then
it is a document! If it fails to function as a document – then it is not a
document!

 

I have not tried this formulation with the wider M376 drafting team – so
they may not like it. Even if they do, the reviewers of the standard may not
like it. But I think that it is important that WCAG2ICT can agree something
that at least stands a chance of being accepted – and I am afraid that
“single composition” is not that something.

 

I have not yet formed an opinion regarding Note 3.

 

Best regards

 

Mike

 

From: Alex Li [mailto:alli@microsoft.com] 
Sent: 22 August 2013 00:27
To: Peter Korn; Gregg Vanderheiden
Cc: Bailey, Bruce; public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org Force
Subject: RE: Definition of Documents -- OOPS - error fixed -- use this email
to comment

 

I am dubious of inventing new and unexplained terms. If all we need is a
dictionary, then we wouldn't need a glossary in the first place.  I hope the
irony that we are debating how to define a very common word that's in all
known English dictionaries is not lost here.

We need to be self aware enough that we use esoteric languages that most
people just can't understand. Go ask any random person what single
composition means. I think a blank stare is the most likely response. 

Sent from my Windows Phone

  _____  

From: Peter Korn <mailto:peter.korn@oracle.com> 
Sent: ‎8/‎21/‎2013 15:59
To: Gregg Vanderheiden <mailto:gv@trace.wisc.edu> 
Cc: Alex Li <mailto:alli@microsoft.com> ; Bailey, Bruce
<mailto:Bailey@Access-Board.gov> ; public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org Force
<mailto:public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org> 
Subject: Re: Definition of Documents  -- OOPS - error fixed  -- use this
email to comment

Gregg,

I disagree with your claim below.  Our existing definition text (with
emphasis added) is: 

"assembly of  <http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_content> content,
such as a file, set of files, or streamed media that is not part of software
and that does not include its own user agent"

Note 3 only provides further details about types of content that are part of
software, namely "software configuration and storage files such as databases
and virus definitions, as well as computer instruction files such as source
code, batch/script files, and firmware", which the Note simply observes "are
examples of files that function as part of
<http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_software> software and thus are
not examples of documents".

Seems to me we have plenty enough to hang Note 3 on.


Peter

On 8/21/2013 11:07 AM, Gregg Vanderheiden wrote:

We really don't have a basis for including Note 3.   With our current
wording -- the note adds to rather than explains -- and notes shouldn’t do
that.   So actually we shouldn’t have added the note with our current
language since they contradict each other.   The definition has no
limitations like those added in the note. 

 

The 'single composition' language fixes this problem.  and is not ambiguous
and does not rely on 'intent' language.

 

 

 

Gregg

--------------------------------------------------------

Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D.

 

On Aug 21, 2013, at 12:13 PM, Peter Korn <peter.korn@oracle.com> wrote:

 

Gregg, all,

The more we iterate over this and discuss the challenges arising from
various suggestions, the more uncomfortable I'm getting with the direction
this is going.  Nor am I convinced of the need for something.

On the one hand, we understandably are striving to avoid anything related to
"author / developer intent", as it is near impossible to discern intent
(e.g. "meant to function as").  On the other hand, we need to avoid the
inverse problem: discerning what a user might think (e.g. "that appears to
the user as").


While I like having something more than we had to more directly hang our
Note 3 off of, I'm not convinced we need it.  AND I remain convinced that
all of the specific examples cited are already covered by Note 3.


Peter

On 8/21/2013 8:34 AM, Alex Li wrote:

I like this better than the previous proposal.  But I worry that we are
again inventing terms that people don’t necessarily understand or may easily
come up with different meaning than intended.  What is a “single
composition”?  How do you determine something is or isn’t a “single
composition”? 

 

From: Gregg Vanderheiden [mailto:gv@trace.wisc.edu] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 8:24 AM
To: Bailey, Bruce
Cc: public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org Force
Subject: Re: Definition of Documents -- OOPS - error fixed -- use this email
to comment

 

right after I posted it I came to the same conclusion.   What people have
sought is something that can be judged from the author and the viewer
standpoint.     

so   "meant"  "intended" "designed" etc all require knowledge from the
author end. 

 

So I suggest   "that appears to the user as a single composition"

 

there should also be a comma after software so that it reads 

assembly of content, such as a file, set of files, or streamed media that
appears to the user as a single composition, that is not part of software,
and that does not include its own user agent 

 

that would make it

 

 

document (as used in WCAG2ICT)

assembly of  <http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_content> content,
such as a file, set of files, or streamed media, <that appears to the user
as a single composition>,  that is not part of software, and that does not
include its own user agent

Note 1: A document always requires a user agent to present its
<http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_content> content to the user.

Note 2: Letters, spreadsheets, emails, books, pictures, presentations, and
movies are examples of documents.

Note 3: Software configuration and storage files such as databases and virus
definitions, as well as computer instruction files such as source code,
batch/script files, and firmware, are examples of files that function as
part of  <http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_software> software and
thus are not examples of documents. If and where software retrieves
“information and sensory experience to be communicated to the user” from
such files, it is just another part of the
<http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_content> content that occurs in
software and is covered by WCAG2ICT like any other parts of the software.
Where such files contain one or more embedded documents, the embedded
documents remain documents under this definition.

Note 4: Anything that can present its own
<http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_content> content without
involving a user agent, such as a self playing book, is not a document but
is  <http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_software> software.

Note 5: A single document may be composed of multiple files such as the
video content, closed caption text, etc. This fact is not usually apparent
to the end-user consuming the document /
<http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_content> content. This is
similar to how a single web page can be composed of content from multiple
URIs (e.g. the page text, images, the JavaScript, a CSS file etc.).

 

Gregg

--------------------------------------------------------

Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D.
Director Trace R&D Center
Professor Industrial & Systems Engineering
and Biomedical Engineering University of Wisconsin-Madison

Technical Director - Cloud4all Project - http://Cloud4all.info
<http://cloud4all.info/> 
Co-Director, Raising the Floor - International - http://Raisingthefloor.org
<http://raisingthefloor.org/> 
and the Global Public Inclusive Infrastructure Project -  http://GPII.net
<http://gpii.net/> 

 

On Aug 20, 2013, at 6:25 AM, "Bailey, Bruce" <Bailey@Access-Board.gov>
wrote:

 

I don’t disagree with the combination, but I do want to double check on
something.  I recall, but cannot point to anything, that for WCAG we rather
deliberated avoided normative phrasing that was based on author intent.  If
my recollection about this is correct, then “meant to function as a single
entity” is just a little too subjective.  If, and only if, I am raising a
valid issue then perhaps we could tweak the phrasing to something like
“experienced by the end-user as a single entity”?

 

From: Gregg Vanderheiden [mailto:gv@trace.wisc.edu <http://trace.wisc.edu/>
] 
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 10:52 PM
To: Peter Korn
Cc: Alex Li; public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org Force
Subject: Re: Definition of Documents -- OOPS - error fixed -- use this email
to comment

 

In not sure why it doesn’t -- since the hard drive files are clearly a
collection and not meant to be an entity -- since each persons is different.

But since we agree that that the note and the added text solve the problem
together --  I think we are all set. 

 

Since we can't actually have the note 3 without support in the definition --
having the extra phrase in the definition helps the note too.

 

So, does anyone disagree with the combination?   

 

Just double checking since it will be up for clearance on Friday where we
are hoping to bring this to a conclusion and send on to WCAG WG. 

 

thanks 

 

Gregg

--------------------------------------------------------

Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D.
 

 

On Aug 19, 2013, at 5:05 PM, Peter Korn < <mailto:peter.korn@oracle.com>
peter.korn@oracle.com> wrote:

 

Gregg, Alex,

I don't see how Gregg's change addresses hard drive partitions.  BUT they
are already addressed by our Note 3, so I'm not worried about those.

Further, as I think about this, I think the other concern of an e-mail file
is likewise addressed by our Note 3 ("software configuration AND STORAGE
FILES such as databases").  A mail file containing in a single file an
entire folder of e-mails is fundamentally a simple flat file database
STORAGE FILE.

I don't mind the generalization language that Gregg suggests inserting.  It
makes Note 3 more of a specific example of the general new phrase Gregg
proposes.  But I also think we were prescient enough in crafting the
language of Note 3 to cover all of the examples cited so far as potential
problems.

Peter

On 8/19/2013 1:54 PM, Alex Li wrote:

Gregg,

How does the change prevent readers from interpreting a hard drive partition
as a “single entity”?

All best,

Alex

 

From: Gregg Vanderheiden [ <mailto:gv@trace.wisc.edu>
mailto:gv@trace.wisc.edu] 
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 1:32 PM
To:  <mailto:public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org> public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org Force
Subject: Definition of Documents -- OOPS - error fixed -- use this email to
comment

 

Sorry, 

grabbed the wrong draft - here is the actual current definition with change.
(last one was missing the new note 3) 

G

 

In responding to comments made during our public review of WCAG2ICT it
appears that we have a flaw in our definition of document. Our current
definition is:

 

document (as used in WCAG2ICT)

assembly of  <http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_content> content,
such as a file, set of files, or streamed media that is not part of software
and that does not include its own user agent

Note 1: A document always requires a user agent to present its
<http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_content> content to the user.

Note 2: Letters, spreadsheets, emails, books, pictures, presentations, and
movies are examples of documents.

Note 3: Software configuration and storage files such as databases and virus
definitions, as well as computer instruction files such as source code,
batch/script files, and firmware, are examples of files that function as
part of  <http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_software> software and
thus are not examples of documents. If and where software retrieves
“information and sensory experience to be communicated to the user” from
such files, it is just another part of the
<http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_content> content that occurs in
software and is covered by WCAG2ICT like any other parts of the software.
Where such files contain one or more embedded documents, the embedded
documents remain documents under this definition.

Note 4: Anything that can present its own
<http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_content> content without
involving a user agent, such as a self playing book, is not a document but
is  <http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_software> software.

Note 5: A single document may be composed of multiple files such as the
video content, closed caption text, etc. This fact is not usually apparent
to the end-user consuming the document /
<http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict-def_content> content. This is
similar to how a single web page can be composed of content from multiple
URIs (e.g. the page text, images, the JavaScript, a CSS file etc.).

 

however, this definition is so broad that an entire email system (such as
Outlook which stores all of the email in a single .PST file) would qualify
as a single document. In fact, an entire hard drive (that did not contain
the OS or apps that displayed it)  could be considered a document.

 

I therefore suggest that the phrase

"that is meant to function as a single entity rather than a collection,"

 

 be added so that it reads:

 

assembly of content, such as a file, set of files, or streamed media that is
meant to function as a single entity rather than a collection, that is not
part of software, and that does not include its own user agent 

 

Comments welcome 

 

Gregg

--------------------------------------------------------

Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D.
Director Trace R&D Center
Professor Industrial & Systems Engineering
and Biomedical Engineering University of Wisconsin-Madison

Technical Director - Cloud4all Project -  <http://cloud4all.info/>
http://Cloud4all.info
Co-Director, Raising the Floor - International -
<http://raisingthefloor.org/> http://Raisingthefloor.org
and the Global Public Inclusive Infrastructure Project -
<http://gpii.net/> http://GPII.net

 

 

-- 
 <http://www.oracle.com/> <oracle_sig_logo.gif>
Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal
Phone: +1 650 5069522 <tel:+1%20650%205069522>  
500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94064 
 <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> <green-for-email-sig_0.gif> Oracle is
committed to developing practices and products that help protect the
environment 

 

 

-- 
 <http://www.oracle.com> Oracle
Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal
Phone: +1 650 5069522 <tel:+1%20650%205069522>  
500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94064 
 <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> GreenOracleOracle is committed to
developing practices and products that help protect the environment