Re: Comment #24 - Evaluating Templates with no content

Hi Kostas,

can this lead to a situation where you evaluate the empty templates,  
all seems fine, then the company instantiates them and suddenly all  
sorts of issues crop up? In that case, any reference to a proven  
compliance to WCAG would be misleading. But maybe there is no  
intention to carry a conformance claim and this is a non-issue.

Regards,
Detlev

On 23 Aug 2012, at 08:50, kvotis@iti.gr wrote:

> Hi Everyone
>
> actually many times in Greece, some Greek companies (e.g. Private  
> Bank due
> to confidentiality issues) sent us empty templates to be evaluated for
> accessibility and i fully agree with Shadi's position
>
>
> regards
>
> kostas
>
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I have not personally inspected empty templates for accessibility
>> issues but I am happy to believe that this can be very valuable. I
>> just think the proper point of reference in WCAG-EM is a set of
>> *pages* aggregated as sample.
>>
>> Empty templates sit somewhat oddly with the rest of the sample.  
>> That's
>> why I think that the mentioning of 'templates available to the
>> evaluator' in Step 2.a and Step 3.a is a bit confusing. By definiton,
>> the empty template will be devoid of real content, so many SC (1.1.1,
>> 1.3.1, 1.3.2, etc) cannot be checked meaningfully. This is at odds
>> with Requirement 4.a: "Each web page in the sample (...) shall be
>> checked for meeting *each of the WCAG 2.0 Success Criteria*  
>> (...)" (my
>> emphasis). If templates are not part of the sample (for example, as
>> instantiated pages), then they cannot be checked fully and also, sit
>> outside of every score function we may eventually devise to be  
>> applied
>> to the evaluation results (even a simple count of fass/fail per SC
>> across pages).
>>
>> I would recommend a note that "in some contexts, it can be helpful to
>> check page templates on their own" or similar and make that an
>> optional part of WCAG-EM, and just talk about the evaluation of
>> *pages* (incl. page states) in the steps of WCAG-EM.
>>
>> Best,
>> Detlev
>>
>> PS: Shadi and Eric, tHanks for the tons of work that went into
>> addressing the issues raised and proposing changes. I agree with the
>> resolutions in the disposition of comments (hope I haven't overlooked
>> something I later find I am not happy with ;-)
>>
>> On 23 Aug 2012, at 05:14, Vivienne CONWAY wrote:
>>
>>> HI Shadi
>>> I'm thinking it is both.  Sorry, sitting on the fence.
>>>
>>> It does make the evaluator's life easier, and to provide consistency
>>> I think it's necessary to know how accessible the basic template is.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Vivienne L. Conway, B.IT(Hons), MACS CT, AALIA(cs)
>>> PhD Candidate & Sessional Lecturer, Edith Cowan University, Perth,
>>> W.A.
>>> Director, Web Key IT Pty Ltd.
>>> v.conway@ecu.edu.au
>>> v.conway@webkeyit.com
>>> Mob: 0415 383 673
>>>
>>> This email is confidential and intended only for the use of the
>>> individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended
>>> recipient, you are notified that any dissemination, distribution or
>>> copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received
>>> this email in error, please notify me immediately by return email or
>>> telephone and destroy the original message.
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: Shadi Abou-Zahra [shadi@w3.org]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, 22 August 2012 8:29 PM
>>> To: Vivienne CONWAY
>>> Cc: Eval TF
>>> Subject: Re: Comment #24 - Evaluating Templates with no content
>>>
>>> Hi Vivienne,
>>>
>>> I agree that this particular type of evaluation is outside the scope
>>> of
>>> the methodology (as we have defined it). The question is, what is  
>>> the
>>> role of evaluating *templates* (the empty shells) for post- 
>>> development
>>> conformance evaluation?
>>>
>>> Long ago when I was actively involved in evaluation, I recall
>>> spotting a
>>> potential issue in some of the templates that were infrequently used
>>> on
>>> a particular website. It would have taken me ages to find  
>>> instances of
>>> pages with the particular problems but because I knew the templates
>>> and
>>> the way the content was generated, I knew the patterns to look for.
>>>
>>> Did just make my life easier (= should be an advice to evaluators in
>>> the
>>> methodology), or was it actually necessary to maximize confidence in
>>> my
>>> evaluation (= should be a requirement in the methodology)?
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>  Shadi
>>>
>>>
>>> On 22.8.2012 13:55, Vivienne CONWAY wrote:
>>>> Hi all
>>>> I thought I'd try to address some ideas about templates with no
>>>> content.
>>>>
>>>> In comment #24, Detlev mentioned that he "did not see how one woudl
>>>> evaluate the template on its own, instead of a particular instance
>>>> with all content rendered as web page."
>>>>
>>>> I've just been asked to evaluate a set of templates before they
>>>> have content added so that the developer can check the
>>>> accessibility of them before content is added and might have to be
>>>> removed again for a re-do of the page.  This does happen quite a
>>>> lot, and we are also asked to have our user testers look at sets of
>>>> templates before content is added as well.
>>>>
>>>> I think that as we're continually advocating that accessibility
>>>> should involved early in the development of websites, and then at
>>>> every stage of the life cycle of the website, we should see this as
>>>> a good thing.  A developer designs a template for the client, and
>>>> then makes sure that this template is accessible.
>>>>
>>>> My only concern is that this may not really relate to the
>>>> methodology as we're talking about complete websites, and not
>>>> single pages or templates.  However, we are pitching the
>>>> methodology as being relevant for developers etc. also.  Any
>>>> thoughts?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> Vivienne L. Conway, B.IT(Hons), MACS CT, AALIA(cs)
>>>> PhD Candidate & Sessional Lecturer, Edith Cowan University, Perth,
>>>> W.A.
>>>> Director, Web Key IT Pty Ltd.
>>>> v.conway@ecu.edu.au
>>>> v.conway@webkeyit.com
>>>> Mob: 0415 383 673
>>>>
>>>> This email is confidential and intended only for the use of the
>>>> individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended
>>>> recipient, you are notified that any dissemination, distribution or
>>>> copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received
>>>> this email in error, please notify me immediately by return email
>>>> or telephone and destroy the original message.
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> From: Shadi Abou-Zahra [shadi@w3.org]
>>>> Sent: Monday, 20 August 2012 6:34 PM
>>>> To: Eval TF
>>>> Cc: Eric Velleman
>>>> Subject: [important] closed and open comments with actions
>>>>
>>>> Dear Eval TF,
>>>>
>>>> As a recap, please see the following actions for this week:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> # Comments from Public Review (WD 27 March)
>>>>  - <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/comments>
>>>>  - There were no comments on this disposition of comments from
>>>> Eval TF
>>>> in the survey of 7 August 2012; All comments have been closed now.
>>>>  - *ACTION:* Let us know immediately if you have objections.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> # Comments from Eval TF Review (ED 30 July)
>>>>  - <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/comments-20120730>
>>>>  - Proposed resolutions available are for your review for all
>>>> comments
>>>> except #24, #29, and #30, and an on-going discussion on comment  
>>>> #32.
>>>>  - *ACTION:* Review this disposition of comments by _today_.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> # Comments from WCAG WG Review (ED 30 July)
>>>>  - <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-evaltf/2012Aug/0034
>>>>>
>>>>  - Editors working on proposed resolutions for these comments; let
>>>> us
>>>> know any comments or thoughts you may have on it as well.
>>>>  - *ACTION:* Read the WCAG WG comments before the next call.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>   Shadi
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Shadi Abou-Zahra - http://www.w3.org/People/shadi/
>>>> Activity Lead, W3C/WAI International Program Office
>>>> Evaluation and Repair Tools Working Group (ERT WG)
>>>> Research and Development Working Group (RDWG)
>>>>
>>>> This e-mail is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient
>>>> you must not disclose or use the information contained within. If
>>>> you have received it in error please return it to the sender via
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>>>> information contained within is not the opinion of Edith Cowan
>>>> University in general and the University accepts no liability for
>>>> the accuracy of the information provided.
>>>>
>>>> CRICOS IPC 00279B
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Shadi Abou-Zahra - http://www.w3.org/People/shadi/
>>> Activity Lead, W3C/WAI International Program Office
>>> Evaluation and Repair Tools Working Group (ERT WG)
>>> Research and Development Working Group (RDWG)
>>>
>>> This e-mail is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient
>>> you must not disclose or use the information contained within. If
>>> you have received it in error please return it to the sender via
>>> reply e-mail and delete any record of it from your system. The
>>> information contained within is not the opinion of Edith Cowan
>>> University in general and the University accepts no liability for
>>> the accuracy of the information provided.
>>>
>>> CRICOS IPC 00279B
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Detlev Fischer
>> testkreis - das Accessibility-Team von feld.wald.wiese
>> c/o feld.wald.wiese
>> Borselstra?e 3-7 (im Hof)
>> 22765 Hamburg
>>
>> Tel   +49 (0)40 439 10 68-3
>> Mobil +49 (0)1577 170 73 84
>> Fax   +49 (0)40 439 10 68-5
>>
>> http://www.testkreis.de
>> Beratung, Tests und Schulungen f?r barrierefreie Websites
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

-- 
Detlev Fischer
testkreis - das Accessibility-Team von feld.wald.wiese
c/o feld.wald.wiese
Borselstraße 3-7 (im Hof)
22765 Hamburg

Tel   +49 (0)40 439 10 68-3
Mobil +49 (0)1577 170 73 84
Fax   +49 (0)40 439 10 68-5

http://www.testkreis.de
Beratung, Tests und Schulungen für barrierefreie Websites

Received on Thursday, 23 August 2012 06:56:49 UTC