- From: Michael S Elledge <elledge@msu.edu>
- Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 08:57:48 -0400
- To: Alistair Garrison <alistair.j.garrison@gmail.com>
- Cc: Eval TF <public-wai-evaltf@w3.org>
- Message-Id: <14490F05-1D1F-49E9-9EA2-821F8932EDBE@msu.edu>
Hi Alistair-- Sorry for any confusion. Certification in the sense that someone is certifying their site or software is compliant. Not certification in the formal or official meaning of the word, as in "This site has been certified to be compliant with WCAG 2.0 AA by the W3C." I don't think anyone wants to go there! Mike On Aug 17, 2012, at 4:18 AM, Alistair Garrison <alistair.j.garrison@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Michael, > > You mention certification, but I cannot find a previous point to this in the thread - did I miss something? > > Alistair > > On 17 Aug 2012, at 05:08, Michael S Elledge wrote: > >> I don't have a problem postponing discussion until after our next draft. See below. >> >>>>>>> As discussed today, we agreed to open an issue to continue this discussion after publication. It would help to see what wording you would like to have changed before publication. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> Shadi >> >> I also recognize that certification of any sort is problematic. >> >> Mike >> >> On Aug 16, 2012, at 10:16 PM, Peter Korn <peter.korn@oracle.com> wrote: >> >>> Michael, >>> >>> Not to put too fine a point on it, but where is the word "accountability" or the phrase "conformance claim" in our work statement? I don't see anything in the Objective or Approach portions that directs us to develop text for this. >>> >>> Remember that our work is supposed to support a variety of contexts, including self-assessment (e.g. for an org to use as part of its own testing & development cycle). Nothing about accountability or public statements in those contexts. >>> >>> >>> I'm also mindful that we are trying to get another public draft out as we work toward "first release" in December 2012, a year ahead of the final release in December 2013. We still have lots of core evaluation questions to work through - not least of which are those related to web applications that utilize technologies like Javascript & ARIA. Is now the right time for us to be worrying about the precise required text in an optional accessibility statement a consumer of our December 2013 work product might make? >>> >>> >>> I stand by my words from this morning (my time): I don't think this public draft should go out with this text. Let's keep a placeholder for our thoughts on an optional accessibility statement in this public draft, and focus our energies on how to evaluate the hairier aspects of modern websites. >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Peter >>> >>> On 8/16/2012 6:49 PM, Michael S Elledge wrote: >>>> Hi Peter-- >>>> >>>> My intent was to suggest a solution that would address your concerns of W3C over-reach, while ensuring that there is accountability for people making conformance claims. >>>> >>>> Since we are discussing whether we should address conformance claims in our document it also makes sense to discuss what they might contain. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> On Aug 16, 2012, at 7:57 PM, Peter Korn <peter.korn@oracle.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Michael, >>>>> >>>>> Reading Richard's comment - and the WCAG WG feedback summary e-mail - prompted me to review again the EvalTF Work Statement. >>>>> >>>>> What in our statement of work suggests that it is within our scope to define how a site that evaluates using our methodology shall respond to e-mail from folks unrelated to the evaluation? Likewise what in our work statement suggests that it is within our scope to define how a site that evaluates using our methodology shall provide estimates about ANYTHING for doing work suggested by folks unrelated to the evaluation? >>>>> >>>>> I can perhaps see how it might be in scope for someone using our methodology to be asked to behave in certain ways with evaluators they have expressly sought to evaluate their site using our methodology. But none of the rest of what you are suggesting seems germane to the task we've been assigned in this task force. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Peter >>>>> >>>>> On 8/16/2012 4:45 PM, Michael S Elledge wrote: >>>>>> What if we suggest that organizations using compliance statements post issues brought to their attention with a best faith estimate of when they'd be addressed? >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> On Aug 16, 2012, at 6:13 PM, "RichardWarren" <richard.warren@userite.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Shadi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree whole heartedly with Peter’s comments re any statement that stipulates how and when corrections should be made. It is not part of the evaluation process to specify specific corrective actions, and certainly not to specify required time-scales (what sanctions would you apply if the timescale is not met?). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I therefore concur with Peter that the draft should not be published with any statement requiring website owners to take specific actions or work within specific timescales >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Richard >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: Peter Korn >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2012 4:41 PM >>>>>>> To: Shadi Abou-Zahra >>>>>>> Cc: Eval TF >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Accessibility Statements (was Re: Comments from Eval TF review) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Shadi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I recognize that it is optional. BUT... by spelling out what EvalTF thinks it should contain, you are putting the weight of W3C behind it, creating a sort of "sanctioned statement". This means that a certain degree of care is necessary in crafting what that "sanctioned statement" should be. AND because - as you note - there are many statements out there presently, the (apparently intended) effect of someone adopting the EvalTF methodology is that they would HAVE to change their existing statement in order to conform to EvalTF or to drop making any statement altogether (since EvalTF says that if there is a statement, it shall be X). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think that is significantly coercive, and because of that, such an - even optional - statement must not be prescriptive. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Does that make sense? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Peter >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 8/16/2012 8:36 AM, Shadi Abou-Zahra wrote: >>>>>>>> Hi Peter, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Providing an accessibility statement is optional. This means that any organization can continue to use its own procedures. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The intent of this item is to avoid the many outdated and imprecise statements that are frequently found on the Web today. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As discussed today, we agreed to open an issue to continue this discussion after publication. It would help to see what wording you would like to have changed before publication. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>> Shadi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 16.8.2012 16:48, Peter Korn wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hi Shadi, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I am very uncomfortable with the proposed text in "3.5.2 Step 5.b Provide an >>>>>>>>> Accessibility Statement (optional)". I'm particularly uncomfortable with the >>>>>>>>> suggestion that the website owner must make a commitment to address/respond/fix >>>>>>>>> issues brought to their attention within any specific number of (business) days >>>>>>>>> as a condition of being an "Eval TF compliant accessibility statement". I don't >>>>>>>>> think the draft should be published with this text as it current is. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think it would be OK to enumerate a suggested set of topics to be addressed in >>>>>>>>> an optional accessibility statement (e.g. to suggest that an accessibility >>>>>>>>> statement speak to how the website owner will respond to issues brought to their >>>>>>>>> attention), but not more than that. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Websites & companies may have accessibility statements already, and we don't >>>>>>>>> want to force them to change those statements or remove them in order to adopt >>>>>>>>> the EvalTF methodology. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Peter >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 8/16/2012 6:39 AM, Shadi Abou-Zahra wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Dear Eval TF, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Eric, Martijn, and I have been processing the comments from Eval TF on the >>>>>>>>>> latest Editor Draft of 30 July 2012. Please review this by *Monday 20 August* >>>>>>>>>> and let us know if you have any comments or questions: >>>>>>>>>> - <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/comments-20120730> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Most comments seem fairly straight-forward to address with some minor tweaks >>>>>>>>>> and re-writes. Proposed resolutions for these are indicated in this >>>>>>>>>> disposition of comments. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Other comments primarily related to editing and writing style. This might be >>>>>>>>>> best done together with the Education and Outreach Working Group (EOWG) who >>>>>>>>>> will start getting involved when we next publish. We propose opening an issue >>>>>>>>>> for these comments to discuss them with EOWG. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Finally, several comments will likely need further discussion by the group >>>>>>>>>> before they can be resolved effectively. We propose opening an issue for each >>>>>>>>>> of these rather than to hold up the publication. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The editorial issues to be opened include: >>>>>>>>>> - #2 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/comments-20120730#c2> >>>>>>>>>> - #6 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/comments-20120730#c6> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The substantive issues to be opened include: >>>>>>>>>> - #5 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/comments-20120730#c5> >>>>>>>>>> - #17 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/comments-20120730#c17> >>>>>>>>>> - #32 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/comments-20120730#c32> >>>>>>>>>> - #34 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/comments-20120730#c34> >>>>>>>>>> - #35 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/comments-20120730#c35> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> During today's teleconference we will request opening these issues. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>> Shadi >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Oracle <http://www.oracle.com> >>>>>>>>> Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal >>>>>>>>> Phone: +1 650 5069522 <tel:+1%20650%205069522> >>>>>>>>> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94065 >>>>>>>>> Green Oracle <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is committed to >>>>>>>>> developing practices and products that help protect the environment >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> <oracle_sig_logo.gif> >>>>>>> Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal >>>>>>> Phone: +1 650 5069522 >>>>>>> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94065 >>>>>>> <green-for-email-sig_0.gif> Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> <oracle_sig_logo.gif> >>>>> Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal >>>>> Phone: +1 650 5069522 >>>>> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94065 >>>>> <green-for-email-sig_0.gif> Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment >>> >>> -- >>> <oracle_sig_logo.gif> >>> Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal >>> Phone: +1 650 5069522 >>> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94065 >>> <green-for-email-sig_0.gif> Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment >
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