- From: Jeff Jaffe <jeff@w3.org>
- Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 08:32:49 -0400
- To: Stephen Zilles <steve@zilles.org>, chaals@yandex-team.ru, 'Stephen Zilles' <szilles@adobe.com>, "'J. Alan Bird'" <abird@w3.org>, 'Virginia Fournier' <vfournier@apple.com>
- Cc: public-w3process@w3.org, ab@w3.org
- Message-ID: <1a491ef8-c754-b78b-a201-c49965993f7c@w3.org>
Chaals, Could you please revert the change that Steve objects to so that we may proceed with the AB ballot? Thanks. Jeff On 10/12/2016 12:25 AM, Stephen Zilles wrote: > > One objection does not cause a change. I have made a number of > objections that have not caused changes. We have an agreed text. > Please use it. We can discuss other changes in a future Process Document. > > Also, the agreed text is not arbitrary; it perpetuates a text that has > been there for 17 years. Without adequate time to have an informed > discussion, last minute, un-reviewed changes are not appropriate. This > has been said about a number of suggested changes that were made late > in the review process. For example, we agreed not to try to fix the > “Affiliate Member” problem. > > And, yes, you did send this proposed change to the mailing list, but, > as far as I know, there was no support for your change and I, for one, > did not oppose it at the time because there was no support. I only > opposed it when you introduced it after all the relevant groups (AB > and ProcessCG) had met without having discussed this change. > > Steve Z > > *From:*chaals@yandex-team.ru [mailto:chaals@yandex-team.ru] > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 11, 2016 4:11 PM > *To:* Stephen Zilles <szilles@adobe.com>; J. Alan Bird <abird@w3.org>; > Virginia Fournier <vfournier@apple.com> > *Cc:* Jeff Jaffe <jeff@w3.org>; Stephen Zilles <steve@zilles.org>; > public-w3process@w3.org; ab@w3.org > *Subject:* Re: Definition of a Member Consortium in section 2.1.2.1 > > I continue to object to the apparently agreed text. See comments at > https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3process/2016Sep/att-0024/00-part when > this *was* discussed on the mailing list. > > As noted in > https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3process/2016Sep/0027.html I > believe the idea that 4 people can be added by any organisation is > both arbitrary, and irrelevant to this particular case. > > cheers > > 11.10.2016, 20:05, "Stephen Zilles" <szilles@adobe.com > <mailto:szilles@adobe.com>>: > > I continue to object to the change to the agreed text. See > comments inline below. > > Steve Z > > *From:*J. Alan Bird [mailto:abird@w3.org <mailto:abird@w3.org>] > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 11, 2016 7:23 AM > *To:* chaals@yandex-team.ru <mailto:chaals@yandex-team.ru>; > Stephen Zilles <szilles@adobe.com <mailto:szilles@adobe.com>>; > Virginia Fournier <vfournier@apple.com <mailto:vfournier@apple.com>> > *Cc:* Jeff Jaffe <jeff@w3.org <mailto:jeff@w3.org>>; Stephen > Zilles <steve@zilles.org <mailto:steve@zilles.org>>; > public-w3process@w3.org <mailto:public-w3process@w3.org>; > ab@w3.org <mailto:ab@w3.org> > *Subject:* Re: Definition of a Member Consortium in section 2.1.2.1 > > On 10/11/2016 07:04, chaals@yandex-team.ru > <mailto:chaals@yandex-team.ru> wrote: > > 10.10.2016, 23:56, "Stephen Zilles" <szilles@adobe.com> > <mailto:szilles@adobe.com>: > > Chaals, > > I think the change you suggest below (adding officers to > paid staff) is a significant, un-reviewed change. > Especaily, since for Member Consortia that have > non-individual members, the 4 designated representatives > are limited to official representatives of the > organization (e.g. officers) that effectively removes the > restriction to 4 such representatives if there are more > than 4 officers. I suggest that we fix the issue you are > concerned about in the next revision of the process and > not make such a big change now. > > Where does the limit of 4 come from? > > This is a legacy number and has been there for at least the 5+ > years I've been here. > > SZ: This number and the following paragraph have appeared > (unchanged as far as I can tell) in every version of the Process > Document since 1999 [1] > > “In the case (described in paragraph 5g of the Full and Affiliate > Member Agreements), where a Member organization is itself a > consortium, user society, or otherwise has members or sponsors, > the organization's paid staff and Advisory Committee > representative will exercise all the rights and privileges of W3C > Membership. In addition, the Advisory Committee representative may > designate up to four (or more at the Director's discretion) unpaid > agents from the organization who will exercise Membership” > > > [1] > http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Process/Process-19991111/organization.html#Members > > > Why does a consortium need to *pay* people before they are > eligible to participate in W3C work, and how does this > translate for the numerous not-for-profit organisations who > have been active members over more or less the lifetime of W3C? > > I'm not hung up on the *pay* aspect as long as they are official > representatives of the organization vs. just a Member of the other > Consortia. > > SZ: the issue is not, in my mind, whether the Consortia need to > **pay** people, but that this change has not been discussed and > publicized and is substantive. Since the document has been this > way for over 17 years, there seems little need to make such a > change without adequate discussion in public (and not just Alan > although his opinion is important). I did not push some of the > changes that I thought were important but had not had prior open > review. I see no need to make this one now without review. > > I had discussed this with Alan before proposing it. I do not > think it is a significant change, since it reflects actual > practice, and as far as I can tell the intent of the restrictions. > > cheers > > Steve Z > > *From:*chaals@yandex-team.ru > <mailto:chaals@yandex-team.ru> > [mailto:chaals@yandex-team.ru <mailto:chaals@yandex-team.ru>] > *Sent:* Monday, October 10, 2016 12:10 PM > *To:* Virginia Fournier <vfournier@apple.com > <mailto:vfournier@apple.com>>; J.Alan Bird <abird@w3.org > <mailto:abird@w3.org>> > *Cc:* Jeff Jaffe <jeff@w3.org <mailto:jeff@w3.org>>; > Stephen Zilles <steve@zilles.org > <mailto:steve@zilles.org>>; public-w3process@w3.org > <mailto:public-w3process@w3.org>; ab@w3.org <mailto:ab@w3.org> > *Subject:* Re: Definition of a Member Consortium in > section 2.1.2.1 > > I've put a lightly edited version of the text into my > draft, which I hope to have done by tomorrow. I also noted > officers and staff get the rights - because there are > consortia whose officers are all unpaid, but who > participate substantially in work. > > cheers > > 10.10.2016, 20:35, "Virginia Fournier" > <vfournier@apple.com <mailto:vfournier@apple.com>>: > > Hi Chaals, > > We want it to be clear that a corporation such as > Apple would not be considered to be a “Member > Consortium” because it has shareholders. So we > support the updated language. If there’s another way > to clarify this point, we’re open to considering it. > > Best regards, > > Virginia Fournier > > Senior Standards Counsel > > Apple Inc. > > ☏669-227-9595 > > ✉︎ vmf@apple.com <mailto:vmf@apple.com> > > On Oct 10, 2016, at 7:02 AM, J. Alan Bird > <abird@w3.org <mailto:abird@w3.org>> wrote: > > > On 10/10/2016 09:09, chaals@yandex-team.ru > <mailto:chaals@yandex-team.ru> wrote: > > The whole change proposal looks editorial to me. > > Personally I hate it as over-legalistic, > unnecessarily complex, and unnecessary given the > fundamentals of process. But I was under the > impression Alan had seen it and didn't see a > substantive difference. > > correct > > 10.10.2016, 14:40, "Jeff Jaffe" <jeff@w3.org> > <mailto:jeff@w3.org>: > > Steve, > > The proposal to update the process vis-a-vis > Member Consortia came from Alan Bird. Are you > aware if he has reviewed David's proposal? > > Jeff > > On 10/10/2016 12:50 AM, Stephen Zilles wrote: > > We must decide on the proposal by David > Singer that we will replace the first > paragraph of section 2.1.2.1 Membership > Consortia which now reads, > > “If the Member is itself a consortium, > user society, or otherwise has members or > sponsors, as described in paragraph 5g of > the Membership Agreement and hereafter > called a "Member Consortium" the rights > and privileges of W3C Membership granted > by W3C Process extend to the > organization's paid staff and Advisory > Committee representative.” > > WITH > > ‘A “Member Consortium” means a consortium, > user society, or association > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_association> of > two or more individuals, > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individuals> > companies > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companies>, > organizations > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organizations> or > governments > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government> (or > any combination of these entities) with > the objective of participating in a common > activity or pooling their resources to > achieve a common goal (other than > participation in, or achieving certain > goals in, W3C). A corporation does not > qualify as a “Consortium” merely because > it has shareholders or stockholders. If > it is not clear whether a prospective > Member qualifies as a Member Consortium, > the Director may reasonably make the > determination. For a Member Consortium, > the rights and privileges of W3C > Membership described in the W3C Process > Document extend to the Member Consortium’s > paid staff and Advisory Committee > representative.’ > > to more clearly distinguish a Consortium > from an organization with shareholders > (a.k.a. a company). > > Note, other changes to 2.1.2.1 have been > suggested, but this change is solely aimed > at clarifying what constitutes a Member > Consortium. It does not change the rights, > privileges and responsibilities of such > organizations. > > Steve Z > > -- > > Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO > Office, Yandex > chaals@yandex-team.ru > <mailto:chaals@yandex-team.ru> - - - Find more at > http://yandex.com <http://yandex.com/> > > > -- > > J. Alan Bird > > W3C Global Business Development Leader > > office +1 617 253 7823 mobile +1 978 335 0537 > > abird@w3.org <mailto:abird@w3.org> twitter @jalanbird > > -- > > Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex > chaals@yandex-team.ru <mailto:chaals@yandex-team.ru> - - - > Find more at http://yandex.com <http://yandex.com/> > > -- > > Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex > chaals@yandex-team.ru <mailto:chaals@yandex-team.ru> - - - > Find more at http://yandex.com <http://yandex.com/> > > > -- > > J. Alan Bird > > W3C Global Business Development Leader > > office +1 617 253 7823 mobile +1 978 335 0537 > > abird@w3.org <mailto:abird@w3.org> twitter @jalanbird > > -- > > Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex > chaals@yandex-team.ru <mailto:chaals@yandex-team.ru> - - - Find more > at http://yandex.com >
Received on Friday, 14 October 2016 12:32:59 UTC