Re: Proposed new Schema.org type for poetry and fiction

~Richard

On 20 Mar 2015, at 13:51, Paul Watson <lazarus@lazaruscorporation.co.uk<mailto:lazarus@lazaruscorporation.co.uk>> wrote:

Hi

This is exactly why I thought I'd open the subject to gather some feedback before starting to draft up an idea! ;)

Yes, it's difficult to try to place a wide collection of types such as Poem, Short Story, etc into the existing schema.org<http://schema.org/> structure. Poems and Short Stories can be (and frequently are) published online on websites and not in Books (or ebooks). And a Book doesn't have to be a written work (it can be a picture book) although obviously the vast majority of books contain writing.


Agree

A list of possible test cases might include:

* A short story, in the science fiction genre, published on an aspiring author's website (but never published in any book/ebook)
* A modernist poem on the subject of cities, published on a poet's website (but also included as part of a self-published book)
* A single chapter of a science fiction novel, published on a publishing company's website as a free teaser to entice people to buy the whole book (available in paperback and ebook)
* A short piece of fan-fiction about the 'Harry Potter' universe, published on a website that specialises in hosting fan fiction
* Shakespeare's Sonnet 18 ("Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?" etc) published on a website (and obviously available in many books)

Most of these could be covered with the currently available types & properties (genre, about) supplemented by Poem and Chapter types & a form property for things like poetry, short-story, fan-fiction, etc.

I agree with you (Richard) about the "form" property being needed for more CreativeWork types - we included such a property in theschema.org/VisualArtwork<http://schema.org/VisualArtwork> type that I drafted up and which was released a month-or-so ago in the form of the schema.org/artform<http://schema.org/artform> property. But again, I think we need to be clear about the difference between a "form" property (which describes the form of the item) and the existing "genre" property (which describes the content/style of the item). In your examples "self-portrait", "landscape", and "graffiti" are more probably covered by genre whereas the form properties for such examples might be "oil painting", "acrylic painting", "watercolour painting”.


I hadn’t spotted it before, but several of the example values for artForm are CreativeWork subTypes - Painting, Sculpture, Photograph and some candidate subtypes - Print, Collage, etc.  Perhaps VisualArtWork should have been a super type for some of these.   "oil painting", "acrylic painting", "watercolour painting” seem far more like formatTypes - similar to as as is used in BookFormatType<http://schema.org/BookFormatType>.

~Richard




Cheers

Paul

On 2015-03-20 13:40, Peter Krauss wrote:
A note about the "taxonomy" of CreativeWork:
* I agree that the reuse principle must be adopted when is possible:
http://schema.org/Book [10], http://schema.org/Article [2], Blog, etc.
can be reused with (or before) Poem, etc.
* I understand that Poem, Chapter, Table, Graphic, Formula, etc. can
be both:  "structural part" and/or "type",
 "structural part" of a CreativeWork (Chapter of Book, Section of
Article, etc.). Ref. NISO JATS standard (the semantic of verse-group,
disp-formula, table, etc. as structural parts)
 "type" of a CreativeWork (Poem is subtype of
CreativeWork/Literature)... Ex. Poem and Drama subtypes.
IMPORTANT: about "structural part", there are some confusion about
"content part" and "concrete part"... I vote to the "content view"
over the "concrete view" of a CreativeWork... The tendency nowadays is
to use the "content" as reference. See the similar dichotomy at "Media
vs Content" in ISSN:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Serial_Number#Media_vs_Content
[11]
PS: this personal view make sense? There are some related "SchemaOrg
directives"? perhaps they are in
    http://schema.org/docs/extension.html [12]
    but I not see with clarity...
2015-03-20 10:03 GMT-03:00 Wallis,Richard <Richard.Wallis@oclc.org<mailto:Richard.Wallis@oclc.org>>:
I share the concerns that without care, this could explode in all
directions.
I don’t see the logic of putting something as a subType of Article
just to inherit the pagination properties.
I believe that the subdivision of CreativeWork types being
considered here (poetry, fiction, sonnet, etc.) is somewhat
orthogonal to the structures already in place in Schema.org<http://schema.org/> [9].
Are not a Book, Article, Blog, all examples of written works?
I believe there is a need for some more CreativeWork subTypes -
Chapter, & Poem immediately come to mind.
I also feel that this proposal is expressing the need for something
such as a ‘form’ property for CreativeWork which in this area
could be used for novel, poetry, fiction, etc. I would expect that
such a property would also be useful for other areas of CreativeWork
- perhaps color, B&W, sepia, for photographs - miniature,
self-portrait, landscape, graffiti for painting.
~Richard
On 20 Mar 2015, at 11:47, <lazarus@lazaruscorporation.co.uk<mailto:lazarus@lazaruscorporation.co.uk>>
<lazarus@lazaruscorporation.co.uk<mailto:lazarus@lazaruscorporation.co.uk>> wrote:
On 2015-03-20 10:29, Niklas Lindström wrote:
Hi,
On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 7:01 AM, Paul Watson
<lazarus@lazaruscorporation.co.uk<mailto:lazarus@lazaruscorporation.co.uk>> wrote:
On 19/03/15 08:52, Anke Wehner wrote:
On 19 March 2015 at 09:01, Paul Watson
<lazarus@lazaruscorporation.co.uk<mailto:lazarus@lazaruscorporation.co.uk>> wrote:
Hi
I am thinking about proposing a new schema.org<http://schema.org/> [1] [1] type for
poetry,
fiction, and other types of creative writing, as a subType of
schema.org/Article<http://schema.org/Article> [2] [2], perhaps with an additional property
that can
be used to classify what type of creative writing it is (e.g.
poem,
haiku, sonnet, short story, fan fiction, etc.).
Having ways to categorise creative writing would be a good
thing,
but I don't think defining them as subtype of Article makes
sense
semantically. A poem, novel or movie script is not an article.
How about creating CreativeWork > WrittenWork, moving
wordCount,
pageEnd, pageStart and pagination from Article there, and
making
Article and CreativeWriting subtypes of WrittenWork?
Regards,
Anke
I went for the least disruptive change rather than the most
semantically correct one, but if people are happy to create
WrittenWork and shift Article to be it's subtype then I'd be
happy
with that.
So, the suggestion as it stands is to create a new type of
WrittenWork as a subtype of Article; move wordCount, pageEnd,
pageStart and pagination from Article to it's new parent
WrittenWork,
then create a new subtype of WrittenWork called CreativeWriting,
with
at least one new property (currently unnamed) that can be used
to
classify what type of creative writing it is (e.g. poem, haiku,
sonnet, short story, fan fiction, etc.). Or should we take the
opportunity to create some subtypes of CreativeWriting while
we're
doing this (e.g. Poem, Story, Script, etc.) instead of using a
new
property of CreativeWriting to classify the type?
These seem like (bibliographic) questions I would like to
involve the
SchemaBibEx CG [1] in. There is a dedicated mailing list [2]
where we
could go into depth on this, unless all feel comfortable hashing
out
the options here. (I did not CC the schemabibex group in this
reply.)
My spontaneous reaction is that there may be some need for a
subtype
for textual works. But I am wary about making it vaguely limited
to
"creative" forms (if "creative" here implies excluding
non-fiction,
academic essays and such). Anke's basic WrittenWork might be
enough.
The specific nature of the text can probably be given using
http://schema.org/genre [3] [3] (provided a resolution to schema
issue 346
[3]) in combination with external enumerations? (See e.g. "genre
in
literature" on wikipedia [4] for the motivation to use genre.)
Compare
that to the newly introduced property http://schema.org/artform
[4] [4],
which (as I previously suggested) might be extended to include
other
forms of expression. (To me, it bears a resemblance to genre,
perhaps
even being a subproperty thereof.)
In any case, the multitude of nature-specific subclasses of
WrittenText can explode just as with specific kinds of
VisualArtwork
(which was the motivation for introducing artwork as opposed to
using
multiple types directly). I'd really like experienced library
folks to
chime in, and that we avoid the introduction of anything overly
specific here.
Cheers,
Niklas
[1]: https://www.w3.org/community/schemabibex/ [5] [5]
[2]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-schemabibex/ [6]
[6]
[3]: https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/346 [7] [7]
[4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genre#Literature [8] [8]
I'd be very grateful for the experienced library folks to chime
in!
I think we've got to be careful about being confused between form
(e.g. the artform property of VisualArtwork or a new property for
the proposed new type for potery/fiction) and genre.
The former is about the form of the content (for VisualArtwork:
Acrylic Painting, Oil Painting, Drawing, Woodcut), whereas genre
is about the subject matter of the content (Landscape painting,
studio portrait, street scene).
This is probably even more apparent for written works where the
new 'type' property would hold values such as "short story",
"novel", "novella", "Poem", "haiku" (relating to the form of the
written work), while the existing genre property inherited from
CreativeWork would be for the genre of the content of the written
work: "Science Fiction", "Fantasy", "Romance", "Horror", "Literary
Fiction" etc.
Cheers
Paul
> > Links: > ------ > [1] http://schema.org<http://schema.org/> [1] > [2]
http://schema.org/Article [2] > [3] http://schema.org/genre [3] >
[4] http://schema.org/artform [4] > [5]
https://www.w3.org/community/schemabibex/ [5] > [6]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-schemabibex/ [6] > [7]
https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/346 [7] > [8]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genre#Literature [8]
Links:
------
[1] http://schema.org<http://schema.org/>
[2] http://schema.org/Article
[3] http://schema.org/genre
[4] http://schema.org/artform
[5] https://www.w3.org/community/schemabibex/
[6] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-schemabibex/
[7] https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/346
[8] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genre#Literature
[9] http://Schema.org<http://schema.org/>
[10] http://schema.org/Book
[11]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Serial_Number#Media_vs_Content
[12] http://schema.org/docs/extension.html