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Re: 2014 Sports Proposal - V3

From: Tom Grahame <tom.grahame@bbc.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2014 15:06:52 +0000
To: PublicVocabs <public-vocabs@w3.org>
CC: "Jason Johnson (BING)" <jasjoh@microsoft.com>
Message-ID: <CFC76099.1247B%tom.grahame@bbc.co.uk>

Thanks for putting this together. Here are my remarks:

SportsOrganization has a property of sport. This might be better as
If Rugby is a sport, then Rugby League and Union might be disciplines.

Statistic has thingMeasured and measuredValue. I wonder if we need a unit
here too.
Exploring the Heptathlon event might be an idea here, as this has tripped
us up in the past.

I think we're missing an attempt at modelling seasons. Here is an example
of how we model seasons, using the notion of a Recurring Competition:

I've also attempted to try and answer some of Peter's queries in line.



On 18/06/2014 04:19, "Peter F. Patel-Schneider" <pfpschneider@gmail.com>

>I was in the middle of thinking about sports when I saw your message, so I
>was very interested in seeing what proposals there are to handle sports.
>However, after reading your document I have many questions.
>Let's start with the definition of a sport.
>What makes a sport professional?  Is that there are professional
>competitions in it?  Then just about everything listed as olympic sports
>professional, but the "(additive)" seems to indicate otherwise.

I'm not sure Sports are professional or otherwise. I can be a professional
athlete and be paid for playing Football, or I might choose to play it
with friends at the park. And not be paid.

Competitions might be professional or otherwise however.

>Is a sport necessarily competitive?  Skiing is not necessarily
>Is recreational skiing a sport?  If not, you are using up a term for
>something that more naturally should be used for something else.

I admit this is awkward. Skiing is also a mode of transport. I think there
might be Skiing the locomotive activity, the leisure activity and the
competitive sport activity.

>Is a sport necessarily athletic?  Some non-athletic activites, e.g.,
>have governing bodies that belong to associations of sports governing

Today I consider Sport to be athletic. Chess is a competitive activity,
but may be played by a machine.
Motor Racing, Darts and Shooting are not athletic in the sense of
Football, but all involve elements of endurance, skill, accuracy etc which
are properties of the animal body over time.

>What is a sport?  Is it a competitive activity that follows certain rules?
>This can't be, as just about every sport you list has variants that are
>played under different rules.  Is a sport something that has a governing
>body to codify several sets of rules?  This doesn't work either, as only a
>couple of the sports you list have particular governing bodies.  Is a
>something that people think of as a natural grouping?  This seems closer,
>but hockey doesn't fit here as ice hockey and field hockey are so very
>different.  Without some guidance as to what a sport is, how can there be
>any commonalities between what people use as sports?

Again, awkward. We avoid the issue in the Sport ontology by only modelling
disciplines and sub disciplines:

>What makes something a team sport?  Only teams compete in Nascar, not
>individuals, for example.  Pairs tennis is competed by two players, which
>might be considered to be a team.  There are team competitions in tennis.
>Are olympic sports contested by teams or by individuals?

In the sense that coaches, physios, managers are part of a team - every
sport is a team sport. Sometimes we refer to head to head sports. Perhaps
that doesn't help.
We deal with this problem in the Sport ontology like so:


>You have several olympic sports.  However, half of these are not actually
>olympic sports according to Wikipedia.  Snowboarding is a discipline of
>skiing, swimming is a displine of aquatics, track isn't even a discpline.
>What makes a team a home team?  Is a home team the team that is most
>related to the venue?  What happens then when the New York Giants play the
>New York Jets?  Is instead a home team the team that is somehow designated
>by the rules of the competition as the home team?

Being Home or Away is a property of the event and not necessarily anything
to do with to location. Data is published today about the World Cup
matches where neither team has an affiliation with the stadium, but either
one is designated as either home or away.

>What is the decision for a tie?  What is the decision for a cricket draw?

Difficult. We are modelling Cricket now and I admit I am not yet familiar.
Cricket does appear to have it's own sense of Ties and Draws.

>Some sports governing bodies, including cricket, provide for different
>of status situations for events.  For example, baseball games can be in
>various states for quite some time, including suspended and protested, and
>can end up never being officially completed.
>Why is the range of sport Text?  This seems to invite abuse, with no way
>recover.   Why not define a Class for sports, and let "things as strings"
>handle situations where text is used as a value?  The particular example
>using a string that just happens to be the URL of a Wikipedia page only
>you the worst of both worlds.

I would hope we can use a dbpedia identifier here. Public URIs might be
useful for merging data.

>What is a coach?  Is a baseball (field) manager a coach?  Is a general
>manager a coach?  The answers here are fairly obvious, but it would be
>worthwhile, I think, to include some guidance.
>There are no separate classes for leagues or governing bodies, which are
>very important for almost all the sports you list, and are vitally
>for the olympics.  There does not appear to be any way to discuss seasons
>or any other sort of multi-event competition except as sub-events, and
>is very poorly set up for anything besides a single-admission event.
>does not appear to be any way to connect an sports event to the sport
>played or to the sanctioning body of the event.
>I think that these questions and concerns need to be addressed before the
>proposal can be considered to be mature.
>Peter F. Patel-Schneider
>On 06/16/2014 02:57 PM, Jason Johnson (BING) wrote:
>> All,
>> Iım pleased to formally announce and encourage review and feedback on an
>> updated version of the 2014 Sports Vocabulary proposal that was
>> shared earlier this year
>> <http://blog.schema.org/2014/02/schemaorg-sports-vocabulary.html> in
>> This is the third (and hopefully final) major update to the proposal
>> then with major changes including:
>> - overhaul of the statistics and event results vocabulary and data model
>> - removal of the ŒEvent Seriesı vocabulary in favor of the more generic
>> Itemlist proposal
>> - significant re-formatting to make the doc more readable
>> - alignment with the new Role based vocabulary and data model
>> A full list of changes can be found in the Change Log at the bottom of
>> exported PDF <https://www.w3.org/wiki/File:2014SportsVocab-v3.pdf>.
>> W3c Wiki Page: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebSchemas/Sports
>> Exported PDF: https://www.w3.org/wiki/File:2014SportsVocab-v3.pdf
>> Below are links to some of the new terms within a test build of
>> http://sdo-sports.appspot.com/SportsOrganization
>> http://sdo-sports.appspot.com/Statistic
>> http://sdo-sports.appspot.com/SportsTeam
>> http://sdo-sports.appspot.com/Decision
>> http://sdo-sports.appspot.com/WinDecision
>> http://sdo-sports.appspot.com/LoseDecision
>> http://sdo-sports.appspot.com/SportsEvent
>> http://sdo-sports.appspot.com/CompetitionEvent
>> http://sdo-sports.appspot.com/Decision
>> http://sdo-sports.appspot.com/PlaceDecision
>> http://sdo-sports.appspot.com/DidNotFinishDecision
>> http://sdo-sports.appspot.com/EventCompleted
>> REGARDING FEEDBACK:  Although this effort originated in the schema.org
>> collaboration google group
>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/sports-schema-collab>, in the
>> interests of consolidated feedback, I encourage everyone to simply use
>> W3c based public-vocabs mailing list.
>> Cheers,
>> *Jason Johnson*
>> Microsoft | Bing
Received on Wednesday, 18 June 2014 15:07:26 UTC

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