- From: Phil Archer <phila@w3.org>
- Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 09:02:40 +0000
- To: W3C Web Schemas Task Force <public-vocabs@w3.org>
Just a quick note to say thank you to everyone who responded. It's nice to see consensus around the very narrow topic I raised - I have passed the advice on to Shuji who is doing the Japanese translation that treating a label like foo as hasFoo, or fooOf or whatever, is OK in translation. The broader point that is obviously related is whether it is ever a good idea to have foo->Foo. There seems pretty good agreement that this leads to avoidable ambiguity (fwiw I agree). And a Schemas Task Force Note on the general topic of labelling properties and classes seems like a god idea to me. I suggest any such work also draws on the expertise of the Linked Data for Language Technology CG [1] as well. Thanks again Phil. [1] http://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt/ On 12/02/2014 07:17, Bernard Vatant wrote: > Hi Martin > > Just for the record, the initial question by Phil was not about naming in > the schema.org namespace, but vocabularies hosted in the W3C ns, such as > org. This is public-vocabS list ... > And my point about Chinese was indeed this language seems to have less > religion and more built-in pragmatism than English - but maybe your > "religious" remark was not addressed to me after all :) > > > > 2014-02-11 18:00 GMT+01:00 martin.hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org < > martin.hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org>: > >> A general comment: >> >> When we articulate requirements on the naming of elements in schema.org, >> let’s >> >> 1. not get too philosophical and >> 2. look at how keywords have been chosen in other formalisms, namely >> programming languages. >> >> Of course, it is more difficult to find catchy keywords for a broad >> conceptual schema that for the set of instructions in a programming >> language. But on the other hand I find the implicit requirement of an >> “ideal” grounding of schema.org in various human languages too far >> reaching. >> >> Python, Java, etc. and most programming languages except for machine code >> have dealt pretty well with mostly English-based keywords, and have been >> used successfully by large, diverse audiences in multi-national development >> teams. >> >> For instance, “print” in many languages from BASIC to Python is incorrect, >> when compared to the etymology of the word, see >> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=print. >> >> So IMHO, let’s not get too religious about naming. >> >> Best >> >> Martin >> >> PS: Some people have thought about the issue from the perspective of >> mapping Chinese database element names, see >> http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1141673. >> >> >> >> >> >> On 11 Feb 2014, at 15:03, Jindřich Mynarz <mynarzjindrich@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I think that in most cases foo -> Foo (i.e. property foo having rdfs:range >> instances of class Foo) can be read as 'has Foo'. However, as Dan pointed >> out, there are some cases, for which this doesn't hold. It's not a >> convention everyone follows. >> >> I wanted to have a broader look at this pattern, in which properties use >> lower-cased local name of classes in their range. So I queried LOV SPARQL >> endpoint (http://lov.okfn.org/endpoint/lov), downloaded vocabularies it >> lists (those that resolved), and queried the merged dataset to see what >> properties and classes following the mentioned naming pattern are there. >> >> This sample contains 251 such property-class pairs and it's available at >> http://databin.pudo.org/t/289185. The (hidden) third column contains >> "yes" if the triple property rdfs:range class is present. >> >> I hope this sample can serve as an approximate illustration of this >> widespread naming pattern in practice. >> >> Best, >> >> Jindřich >> >> -- >> http://mynarz.net/#jindrich >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 2:18 PM, Dan Brickley <danbri@google.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> On 11 Feb 2014 03:03, "Phil Archer" <phila@w3.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> On this occasion I really am trying to avoid getting into the debate >>> about whether it is right or not to use an object property with a label >>> that is the same as the class that is its range, differentiated only by the >>> case of the first letter. That is an issue, and we prob should clear it up, >>> but not today (and I suspect there is a lot of agreement on this). >>>> >>>> I'm just asking, do you agree or not that foo -> Foo *implies* 'has >>> foo' -> Foo sufficiently strongly that a translation of the label into a >>> language that does not have upper and lower case letters can indeed be 'has >>> foo?' >>> >>> Good point re labels. >>> >>> Some examples where this doesn't work well: >>> >>> subClassOf -> hasSubClassOf >>> alumniOf -> hasAlumniOf >>> >>> The 1st points to a broader type; the 2nd to an Educational org that >>> someone is an alumni of. >>> >>> In both cases, prepending 'has' makes less sense and encourages the >>> property to be misread backwards (until you read the last syllable and get >>> confused). >>> >>> In general 'xyzOf' seems to me a 'last resort' when looking for property >>> names. I wish we'd called rdfs:subClassOf "superClass" instead. But as you >>> say that's another discussion. >>> >>> Some more potential examples - >>> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webschema/file/861b6fd28fcb/schema.org/translations/zhcn/schema_org_zhcn.html >>> >>> This is a first cut at schema.org labels in Chinese, thanks to Baidu, >>> where lang of zh-cn is "Mainland China, simplified characters", and as I >>> understand it, caseless. >>> >>> First, a class, 'Event': >>> >>> <div typeof="rdfs:Class" resource="http://schema.org/Event"> >>> >>> <https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webschema/file/861b6fd28fcb/schema.org/translations/zhcn/schema_org_zhcn.html#l675> <span class="h" property="rdfs:label">Event</span> >>> >>> <https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webschema/file/861b6fd28fcb/schema.org/translations/zhcn/schema_org_zhcn.html#l676> <span class="h" property="rdfs:label" xml:lang="zh-cn">事件</span> >>> >>> <https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webschema/file/861b6fd28fcb/schema.org/translations/zhcn/schema_org_zhcn.html#l677> <span property="rdfs:comment">An event happening at a certain time at a certain location.</span> >>> >>> <https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webschema/file/861b6fd28fcb/schema.org/translations/zhcn/schema_org_zhcn.html#l678> <span property="rdfs:comment" xml:lang="zh-cn">在某时某地发生的一件事</span> >>> >>> <https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webschema/file/861b6fd28fcb/schema.org/translations/zhcn/schema_org_zhcn.html#l679> <span>Subclass of: <a property="rdfs:subClassOf" href="http://schema.org/Thing">Thing</a></span> >>> >>> <https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webschema/file/861b6fd28fcb/schema.org/translations/zhcn/schema_org_zhcn.html#l680> </div> >>> >>> and a property, 'event', which seems to have an identical zh-cn label: >>> >>> <https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webschema/file/861b6fd28fcb/schema.org/translations/zhcn/schema_org_zhcn.html#l6142> <div typeof="rdf:Property" resource="http://schema.org/event"> >>> >>> <https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webschema/file/861b6fd28fcb/schema.org/translations/zhcn/schema_org_zhcn.html#l6143> <span class="h" property="rdfs:label">event</span> >>> >>> <https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webschema/file/861b6fd28fcb/schema.org/translations/zhcn/schema_org_zhcn.html#l6144> <span class="h" property="rdfs:label" xml:lang="zh-cn">事件</span> >>> >>> <https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webschema/file/861b6fd28fcb/schema.org/translations/zhcn/schema_org_zhcn.html#l6145> <span property="rdfs:comment">Upcoming or past event associated with this place or organization.</span> >>> >>> <https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webschema/file/861b6fd28fcb/schema.org/translations/zhcn/schema_org_zhcn.html#l6146> <span property="rdfs:comment" xml:lang="zh-cn">即将发生的或已经发生的跟该地点或组织有关的事件</span> >>> >>> <https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webschema/file/861b6fd28fcb/schema.org/translations/zhcn/schema_org_zhcn.html#l6147> <span>Domain: <a property="http://schema.org/domain" href="http://schema.org/Organization">Organization</a></span> >>> >>> <https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webschema/file/861b6fd28fcb/schema.org/translations/zhcn/schema_org_zhcn.html#l6148> <span>Domain: <a property="http://schema.org/domain" href="http://schema.org/Place">Place</a></span> >>> >>> <https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webschema/file/861b6fd28fcb/schema.org/translations/zhcn/schema_org_zhcn.html#l6149> <span>Range: <a property="http://schema.org/range" href="http://schema.org/Event">Event</a></span> >>> >>> <https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webschema/file/861b6fd28fcb/schema.org/translations/zhcn/schema_org_zhcn.html#l6150> </div> >>> >>> Not sure these chars and markup will make it through email fully to >>> everyone, but see webschemas mercurial repo at >>> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webschema/file/861b6fd28fcb/schema.org/translations/zhcn/schema_org_zhcn.htmlfor more examples. >>> >>> >>> Dan >>> >>>> Phil. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 11/02/2014 10:46, Jindřich Mynarz wrote: >>>>> >>>>> OK, I thought I must have misunderstood that. (However, you can argue >>> that >>>>> you can provide owl:equivalentProperty links between the translated >>> URIs.) >>>>> >>>>> If translating rdfs:labels is indeed the case, then why not have 2 >>>>> vocabulary terms with the same label? Is it because it confuses >>> vocabulary >>>>> users and worsens usability of the vocabulary in question? What other >>>>> concerns do you have on mind? >>>>> >>>>> - Jindřich >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> Phil Archer >>>> W3C Data Activity Lead >>>> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/ >>>> >>>> http://philarcher.org >>>> +44 (0)7887 767755 >>>> @philarcher1 >>>> >>> >> >> >> > > -- Phil Archer W3C Data Activity Lead http://www.w3.org/2013/data/ http://philarcher.org +44 (0)7887 767755 @philarcher1
Received on Wednesday, 12 February 2014 09:02:53 UTC