Minutes for VCWG telecon 25 June 2019

available at:
  https://www.w3.org/2019/06/25-vcwg-minutes.html

also as text below.

Thanks a lot for taking these minutes, Amy and Matt!

Kazuyuki

---

   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

                  Verifiable Credentials Working Group

25 Jun 2019

   [2]Agenda

      [2] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-wg/2019Jun/0007.html

Attendees

   Present
          Allen_Brown, Amy_Guy, Andrei_Sambra, Benjamin_Young,
          Dan_Burnett, Dave_Longley, Dmitri_Zagidulin, Ken_Ebert,
          Manu_Sporny, Matt_Stone, Ted_Thibodeau, Yancy_Ribbens,
          David_Chadwick, Kaz_Ashimura, Adrian_Gropper, Sercan_Kum

   Regrets
          brent_zundel, tzviya_siegman

   Chair
          Dan_Burnett, Matt_Stone

   Scribe
          rhiaro, stonematt

Contents

     * [3]Topics
         1. [4]Describe plan for the call
         2. [5]PR announcements
         3. [6]Issue lightning round: close the issues we can
         4. [7]Test Suite Issues and Discussion
         5. [8]Implementation topics discussion
         6. [9]General Implementation Topics
         7. [10]Implementation Guide
     * [11]Summary of Action Items
     * [12]Summary of Resolutions
     __________________________________________________________

   <TallTed> burn - Worth noting -- that was last week's agenda,
   misdated. Though it might still be accurate for today.

   <burn> oops

   <burn> hmm

   <burn> hmm, I think that means that Matt didn't send out the
   agenda, when I thought he had. So no agenda :(

   <burn> Let me prep one quickly.

   <rhiaro> scribe: rhiaro

   burn: we're starting in 1 or 2 minutes, not waiting any longer

   <TallTed> burn -
   [13]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-wg/2019Jun/0
   011.html

     [13] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-wg/2019Jun/0011.html

   <burn> Agenda:
   [14]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-wg/2019Jun/0
   011.html

     [14] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-wg/2019Jun/0011.html

Describe plan for the call

   burn: same plan, go through PRs and issuesa nd move on to test
   suite, and anything else that is implementation related
   ... anything else?

PR announcements

   <burn> [15]https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pulls

     [15] https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pulls

   manu: we have a couple of PRs piling up, will get to them this
   week, will be done by the end of the weekend at the latest
   ... many of these are old

   <burn> [16]https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/641

     [16] https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/641

   <manu> [17]https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/668

     [17] https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/668

   <manu> [18]https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/670

     [18] https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/670

   manu: oliver, based on what I heard are you concerned about
   getting this iat nbnf and misleading statements in? I don't see
   any issue, we should be able to pull those in. Do you have
   background on 668 or 670 that you want to cover?

   oliver: Is tallted on the call?
   ... as far as I know the nbfs PR ?? looks like number ..

   TallTed: I think I'm good with this, I had a rephrasing on 670
   of issue 669, about the ait must be set for digital signatures.
   My wording is because used is an overused word, set is right
   for what we're talkinga bout

   oliver: I didn't have a chance to update the PR, I spoke to
   some of our uport guys to do it on behalf of me, I'm fine with
   the new language
   ... also fine to provide an additional PR later this week if
   necessary

   TallTed: I can make the suggestion as a PR against your fork

   oliver: that would be great thanks

   manu: I'm not hearing any big issues> once that's in I can
   merge, and Ted yours would be a new PR on top of that
   ... I'm not hearing any issues with those PRs
   ... oliver, if we make those updates you're happy with the
   state of the jwt section?

   oliver: yes, I'm fine with renaming iat into nbf, ?? should
   reflect that change, this is what we agreed last week

   manu: dmitri is that an update you had scheduled for the test
   suite?

   dmitriz: I believe oliver made that update in parallel, just
   waiting on the spec update, should be in there I think

   <manu> [19]https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/663

     [19] https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/663

   manu: looking at 663, it's a fairly benign change, any concerns
   from you?

   TallTed: no, if it goes in I'm good

   manu: good, it'll go in

   <manu> [20]https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/664

     [20] https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/664

   manu: next up is 664
   ... which is the nbf not iat one. Is this also needs to go in
   along with olivers updates? or is this .. this feels like it
   might stomp on oliver's pr

   TallTed: it might even be the same

   manu: I'll merge oliver's PR because it has more changes in it,
   and then I'll check line for line whether your PR is reflected
   in his PR

   TallTed: my PR is two three character changes

   manu: My expectation is oliver's pr includes that

   dlongley: oliver's covers everything that Ted's does

   manu: I'm going to close 664

   <manu> [21]https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/665

     [21] https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/665

   manu: next 665
   ... by brent
   ... looks like thumbs up from longley and dmitri. Anyone else
   had a chance to review?
   ... this is a clarification not a substantive change
   ... looks good to me
   ... but we need another reviewer not from digital bazaar
   ... thank you ken

   <manu> [22]https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/666

     [22] https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/666

   manu: next up 666
   ... by markus
   ... seems benign
   ... it's a typo, we'll merge that (what's the worst that could
   happen)

   <manu> [23]https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/671

     [23] https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/671

   manu: 671 is DavidC

   TallTed: it's covered by 670

   manu: but that one got closed
   ... why is this closed

   TallTed: not closed yet

   manu: 670 is changes requrested. We'll close 671 since it's
   included

   TallTed: that's what I would do

   manu: that's all the PRs. Nothing controversial there. We're
   trying to get to PR (Proposed Rec) as quickly as possible. Any
   outstanding PRs (pull requests) that people feel they m ust get
   in before I make a final Proposed Rec version of the spec?

   oliver: what about the test suite PRs? There are a bunch of
   tests for covering jwts that might be important to get them in
   before PR

   <dmitriz>
   [24]https://w3c.github.io/vc-test-suite/implementations/#confor
   mance-testing-results

     [24] https://w3c.github.io/vc-test-suite/implementations/#conformance-testing-results

   dmitriz: we're gonna talk about it in the call, they should all
   be in and we have the updated conformance results over here ^
   ... so that includes uport, digital bazaar, sovrin, evernym,
   danube tech and credly
   ... there's still a work in progress in dividing the
   implementationr eports into intentially not implemented vs
   otherwise but this should be the latest snapshot

   manu: have you had a chance to chat with andrew jones, dmitriz,
   on the work he's done to split up optional vs not optional
   tests?

   dmitriz: yes
   ... I have, this is one step past that in the sense that not
   only do we have required vs optional we also have presentation
   vs credentials, we have a matrix
   ... that's still being updated
   ... we're coordinating

   burn: oliver if you're going to be on later, the report shows a
   large number are not successful for you which I think yo uthink
   should be. We shoulld cover that later

   dmitriz: I suspect that's an artefact of the test setup

   manu: we're at the end of CR, the expectation is the spec is
   locked down. We'll not be making any changes, that's the frame
   of mind you should be in. There may be editorial changes if we
   find that there is a normative change we need to make we'll
   have to go back to CR (we don't have time)
   ... it's super important that we make sure there's nothing else
   anybody wants in this revision
   ... the other thing that's imporant is to make sure, as oliver
   mentioned, that every test you want to see passing is passing
   in the test suite. Once we see that, the report is that, and we
   see two checkboxes for every feature we want, that is the
   signal typically that it's safe to go to proposed rec
   ... because that means we can keep those features, rip out the
   feature at risk stuff which don't have enough implementations.
   That's what we're doing when we go into proposed rec it's sent
   to the membership and they get one last go at the spec to see
   if it's appropriate, they have the option to raise formal
   objections to transition to rEC, and editorial changes, based
   on the feedback we get we have to make a decision about whether
   the spec is done.
   ... Going back to work on it would require rechartering. Or
   it's just a bunch of editorial things we missed during review
   ... all that to say the gating factor right now I think is
   making sure that the implementation report is exactly where we
   want it to be and I think the only thing we're really waiting
   on is the jwt stuff, we have to make sure there are two
   conforming implementatoins for the jwt stuff. My understanding
   is that oliver and markus have implementations. We have to see
   green checkmarks across them. Once we have that we're ready to
   go to PR
   ... and in preparation for that I'm going to make a PR-ready
   spec
   ... that doesn't mean we're going into PR when that's ready,
   just thatw e're locking it down

   burn: time to select our scribe

   <rhiaro> scribenick: stonematt

   ken: some internationalization exams covered?

   manu: status is complex, we know what to write in spec.
   ... no i18n tests in spec. examples are non-normative. will
   update to reflect where we are.
   ... discussion has triggered an update to the spec in another
   WG

   ken: thank you. how about #641?

   manu: will resolve/fix

   ken: 2nd item. test results don't reflect what I thought my
   implementation for ZKP

   dmitriz: will look into it.

   ken: file issue?

   burn: yes
   ... we about to call the spec "done", so if there's an issue or
   potential issue in test suite. file it

   dmitriz: should we have i18n test?

   manu: we could have one in the example context. requires some
   details to take offline. a bit hesitant - requires everyone to
   run the test suite again, if we add a new test

   <Zakim> burn, you wanted to explain about IR after PR

   manu: we can add it post rec - we can add tests during
   maintenance mode

   burn: regarding implementation reports: if you know someone
   else who may not be able to get the implementation done, they
   can still be submitted after PR. They will not be listed in the
   initial set when we go to PR

   <dmitriz> ken: I see the ZKP test results in the report's JSON,
   so I suspect the issue is in the HTML generation.

   manu: will confirm that we have the latest and greatest from
   each. and confirm that the report reflects the results of each
   test
   ... did you have time scheduled this week

   dmitriz: yes and have meetings scheduled. will make another
   pass to reconcile spec to test suite one last time

   <rhiaro> scribe: rhiaro

   stonematt: did we set a date when implementations need to be
   in? If we know people who are working on one? Can we give them
   a real date rather than do it as fast as possible?

   <scribe> scribe: stonematt

   stonematt: on the implementation reports, whats the deadline?

   manu: July 5

Issue lightning round: close the issues we can

   <burn> [25]https://github.com/w3c/vc-test-suite/issues

     [25] https://github.com/w3c/vc-test-suite/issues

   <manu> [26]https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/667

     [26] https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/667

   <manu> [27]https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/669

     [27] https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/669

   manu: looks good right now
   ... burn is planning to close some 7day close issues
   ... bit open issue is DavidC type discussion. will have a
   meeting this week offline w/ manu and stonematt
   ... any other issues?

   Oliver: do we need to get PRs in for the implementation guide
   also?

   manu: yes

   Oliver: will review and submit next week

   manu: you can go ahead and put in PRs on the implementation
   guide b/c it's a WG Note

   Oliver: also need to update my report

   manu: chat w/ marcus to verify that both implementation cover
   the same tests, so we have at least 2 tests for each feature

   burn: wil start coving implementation guide in future agendas

   DavidC: also have a colleague doing a JWT implementation.

Test Suite Issues and Discussion

   <burn> [28]https://github.com/w3c/vc-test-suite/issues

     [28] https://github.com/w3c/vc-test-suite/issues

   ken: Evernym's implementation showed passing in JWT section
   also

   burn: dmitriz please review verify readiness of TS . it will
   become the blocking factor in PR soon

   <burn> [29]https://github.com/w3c/vc-test-suite/issues/59

     [29] https://github.com/w3c/vc-test-suite/issues/59

   dmitriz: assign to self to fix html generation

   <dmitriz> [30]https://github.com/w3c/vc-test-suite/issues/45

     [30] https://github.com/w3c/vc-test-suite/issues/45

   dmitriz: issue 45 test suite. error in report generation. fixed
   PR 57
   ... issue 30, categorization of tests, assign do dmitriz

   <dmitriz> [31]https://github.com/w3c/vc-test-suite/issues/30

     [31] https://github.com/w3c/vc-test-suite/issues/30

   <dmitriz> [32]https://github.com/w3c/vc-test-suite/issues/28

     [32] https://github.com/w3c/vc-test-suite/issues/28

   dmitriz: somewhat mysterious report generation failure. will
   coordinate w/ ken and bzundel
   ... need help debugging

   issue 23

   <dmitriz> [33]https://github.com/w3c/vc-test-suite/issues/23

     [33] https://github.com/w3c/vc-test-suite/issues/23

   dmitriz: missing copyright - will be adding that today

   <dmitriz> [34]https://github.com/w3c/vc-test-suite/issues/22

     [34] https://github.com/w3c/vc-test-suite/issues/22

   issue 22

   dmitriz: tests change to RFC3339. address this week by dmitriz

   <dmitriz> [35]https://github.com/w3c/vc-test-suite/issues/21

     [35] https://github.com/w3c/vc-test-suite/issues/21

   dmitriz: documentation and timeouts - adding clarifying
   comments top readme. issues have beed fixed/addressed.

   <dmitriz> [36]https://github.com/w3c/vc-test-suite/issues/19

     [36] https://github.com/w3c/vc-test-suite/issues/19

   dmitriz: next up a couple of context issues
   ... has kaz fixed this?

   burn: he's not on. last I heard he was working on it

   <dmitriz> [37]https://github.com/w3c/vc-test-suite/issues/18 <-
   same thing

     [37] https://github.com/w3c/vc-test-suite/issues/18

   <dmitriz> and [38]https://github.com/w3c/vc-test-suite/issues/9

     [38] https://github.com/w3c/vc-test-suite/issues/9

   <dmitriz> (also same)

   dmitriz: kaz mentions he's still working on those

   <dmitriz> [39]https://github.com/w3c/vc-test-suite/issues/14

     [39] https://github.com/w3c/vc-test-suite/issues/14

   burn: I will comment on them as well

   issue 14

   dmitriz: needs a bit more content in the readme from the issue
   comments. dmitriz to do this

   <dmitriz> [40]https://github.com/w3c/vc-test-suite/issues/2

     [40] https://github.com/w3c/vc-test-suite/issues/2

   issue 2

   dmitriz: don't thing this applies anylonger
   ... that's all

   burn: anything else about the test suite?

Implementation topics discussion

General Implementation Topics

   burn: open floor on this topic

Implementation Guide

   burn: seeing no-one on the Q

   <burn> [41]https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/issues

     [41] https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/issues

   burn: there are both PRs and Issues
   ... Andrieu you started out a leader her, are you planning to
   continue?

   deiu: maybe

   burn: any volunteers to lead as editor
   ... you are listed as editor

   deiu: I'll do it

   burn: Thank you for volunteering!
   ... let's start w/ PRs. deiu will you start walking through
   them

   deiu: ok

   <manu> [42]https://w3c.github.io/vc-imp-guide/

     [42] https://w3c.github.io/vc-imp-guide/

   <manu> [43]https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/pulls

     [43] https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/pulls

   <deiu> [44]https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/pull/7

     [44] https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/pull/7

   deiu: has anyone reviewed?

   burn: you can ask for specific reviews by adding them as
   reviewers on the PR

   deiu: call for general review and give thumbs up/down

   burn: these are not in the spec, so we don't need the same sort
   of review

   <deiu> [45]https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/pull/11

     [45] https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/pull/11

   burn: let's look at each and get a "next step"

   <manu> +1 to merging 11

   deiu: will add links to other repos

   burn: looks like you can merge

   deiu: I don't have the button to merge

   <burn> Kaz needs to add Andrei as editor of imp-guide

   <scribe> ACTION: kaz add deiu as editor to Imp-Guide
   [DONE]

   <deiu> [46]https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/pull/12

     [46] https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/pull/12

   ken: reviewed this one last week. one section is ready to go,
   others were pending

   deiu: this one can be merged right?

   ken: yes, merge this

   deiu: we still need the JSON-LD, JWT, and ZKP sections

   burn: pr12 is only a partial fix for this issue

   <kaz> [kaz has just sent a GH invitation to Andrei]

   deiu: leave the issue open w/ the checkboxes

   <deiu> [47]https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/pull/13

     [47] https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/pull/13

   deiu: have approval by ken - editorial update

   burn: has conflicts to resolve before merging

   deiu: add editorial tag

   bzundel will you rebase?

   <deiu> [48]https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/pull/15

     [48] https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/pull/15

   deiu: editorial updates.
   ... looks good to merge

   burn: merged

   deiu: everyone please look at PR7 and give feedback
   ... moving to issues

   <deiu> [49]https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/issues/1

     [49] https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/issues/1

   deiu: opened by dmitriz adding JSON schema

   burn: why line Io/credentials?
   ... need a volunteer

   dmitriz: suggests yancy

   yancy: I guess I could, I thought jonnycrunch was doing it

   <burn> kaz, please make jonnycrunch assignable on issues in
   vc-imp-guide

   <deiu> [50]https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/issues/2

     [50] https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/issues/2

   <scribe> ACTION: kaz please make jonnycrunch assignable on
   issues in VC-Imp-Guide
   [DONE]

   deiu: need a couple examples
   ... dlongley can you do this?

   dlongley: looking, will add examples from test suite

   <deiu> [51]https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/issues/3

     [51] https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/issues/3

   burn: manu do you have anything to add or suggest here?

   DavidC: when we've proven that it works we'll add it here

   <kaz> [kaz has sent an invitation to jonnycrunch as well]

   manu: we should mention that multiple people are working on
   this. demo'ed it at Rebooting last year. we can add text here
   ... I will not work on it until after PR

   <deiu> [52]https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/issues/4

     [52] https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/issues/4

   burn: there are a variety of ways to handle this

   manu: hashlinks are the "current" way but not the only way. can
   add text for this

   burn: anyone else at digitalbazaar?

   manu: Ganesh can do this, we'll volunteer him

   <deiu> [53]https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/issues/5

     [53] https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/issues/5

   deiu: related to number 4 relating to non-credential data

   burn: we asked if we could close this and got no reponse. will
   confirm/close.

   <deiu> [54]https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/issues/6

     [54] https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/issues/6

   deiu: need a discussion on this before we have a resolution

   burn: Brent has some ideas about this, will reach out to him

   <deiu> [55]https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/issues/8

     [55] https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/issues/8

   deiu: benefits of different syntaxes and proofs

   burn: manu did you write this?

   manu: yes and it's been merged

   ken: the PR was added and in prose

   burn: last section is Olivers related to JWT

   <dlongley> stonematt: At the F2F the table was getting unwieldy
   and we decided to do a section by section bit in prose and
   leave the comparison to the reader

   <burn> stonematt: we recognized table was too unwieldy since
   couldn't agree on factors. Decided to do prose and leave the
   comparison to the reader

   <ken> Section by section was also my recollection.

   burn: content it key for now, we can reshape it later if needed

   deiu: I'm happy to get the content merged in.

   <deiu> [56]https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/issues/9

     [56] https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/issues/9

   deiu: re: context ordering

   burn: dlongley to you...

   dlongley: reading it now...
   ... I think this is in the spec itself.

   burn: DavidC is this required in the implementation guide?

   DavidC: is there a general order when you have multiple
   contexts

   dlongley: the JSON-LD explains ordering. maybe a link to that
   spec

   DavidC: JSON-LD isn't required, so write our own?

   dlongley: if you're creating new contexts, they should be
   compliant w/ JSON-LD
   ... is there something we need to add to ImpGuide

   DavidC: provide text indicating that you must understand
   JSON-LD context if you are creating them

   dlongley: making sure we're not unnessarily adding text and
   that it's addressing the right issue

   DavidC: this issue is about adding values and order.

   dlongley: in Implementation guide, we would cover it where we
   describe how to create a new credential
   ... when the VC spec is done, there will be a new section here.
   I will be working on that

   deiu: let's open a new issue to cover that

   dlongley: ok

   burn: make sure we have it documented and a "who"

   <dlongley> [57]https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/issues/16

     [57] https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/issues/16

   burn: thank you

   <deiu> [58]https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/issues/10

     [58] https://github.com/w3c/vc-imp-guide/issues/10

   deiu: last issue, 10, use of aliases

   dlongley: close this and reference issue 16

   DavidC: TallTed suggests that Uris don't require context, is
   that right?

   dlongley: if using all URIs, don't need contexts, but this is
   aliases

   TallTed: if you use IRI you don't need context b/c context
   translates to IRI.

   <dmitriz> +1 for the need to clarify this

   DavidC: but what about ordering?

   TallTed: if context is present, then ordering matters b/c if an
   alias is linked twice, order matters

   DavidC: al, because it defines who's IRIs takes presence
   ... should prevent that

   dlongley: you can do that with the protected attribute

   TallTed: it's better to do this case by case instead in the
   spec

   DavidC: why?

   TallTed: because we'll need to redefine things

   manu: it's an open world assumption, so there are use cases
   where this may happen

   DavidC: I get it.

   <TallTed> +1

   dlongley: the resolution is to mention it in issue 16 and show
   example of how to do simple aliases with an example, and give
   alternative example showing use of IRI

   deiu: that's all, thank you!

   burn: last of the agenda, other business?
   ... have a discussion about authors
   ... thanks all!
   ... bye

Summary of Action Items

   [DONE] ACTION: kaz add deiu as editor to Imp-Guide
   [DONE] ACTION: kaz please make jonnycrunch assignable on issues
   in VC-Imp-Guide

Summary of Resolutions

   [End of minutes]
     __________________________________________________________


    Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by
    David Booth's [59]scribe.perl version 1.154 ([60]CVS log)
    $Date: 2019/06/27 14:08:13 $

     [59] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
     [60] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Received on Thursday, 27 June 2019 14:12:12 UTC