{Minutes} TTWG Teleconference 2025-05-22

Thanks all for attending today’s TTWG meeting. Minutes can be found in HTML format at https://www.w3.org/2025/05/22-tt-minutes.html


In plain text:

   [1]W3C

      [1] https://www.w3.org/


                Timed Text Working Group Teleconference

22 May 2025

   [2]Previous meeting. [3]Agenda. [4]IRC log.

      [2] https://www.w3.org/2025/05/08-tt-minutes.html

      [3] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/307

      [4] https://www.w3.org/2025/05/22-tt-irc


Attendees

   Present
          Atsushi, Chris_Needham, Cyril, Gary, Matt, Nigel

   Regrets
          Andreas, Pierre

   Chair
          Gary, Nigel

   Scribe
          nigel, cpn

Contents

    1. [5]This meeting
    2. [6]Republication of png-hdr-pq WG Note
    3. [7]Apply streamlined publication to all of Note track
       documents
    4. [8]DAPT
         1. [9]Transition DAPT requirements WG draft Note as
            formal Note
         2. [10]DAPT User Group
         3. [11]Test suite
         4. [12]Explicitly permit daptm:represents on tt, body,
            div, p and span w3c/dapt#294
    5. [13]IMSC 1.3
         1. [14]Liaison response received from EBU
    6. [15]TPAC 2025 Planning
    7. [16]AOB - TTWG Charter Review
    8. [17]Meeting close

Meeting minutes

  This meeting

   Nigel: Today: note publications, DAPT, IMSC 1.3, TPAC planning,
   and Charter review

   Anything else?

   Matt: User groups for DAPT, people making systems that use it

  Republication of png-hdr-pq WG Note

   Nigel: Note published at [18]https://www.w3.org/TR/2025/

   NOTE-png-hdr-pq-20250518/ and auto-publication on PR merge now
   enabled.

     [18] https://www.w3.org/TR/2025/NOTE-png-hdr-pq-20250518/


   Nigel: Any comments or questions?

   (none)

  Apply streamlined publication to all of Note track documents

   Nigel: This has been done, for png-hdr-pq and dapt-reqs, but
   AFAICT not on TTML profile registry
   … so it's in progress

  DAPT

    Transition DAPT requirements WG draft Note as formal Note

   Nigel: dapt-reqs published as WG Note on 12th May at
   [19]https://www.w3.org/TR/2025/NOTE-dapt-reqs-20250512/


     [19] https://www.w3.org/TR/2025/NOTE-dapt-reqs-20250512/


   Nigel: There are no open issues on dapt-reqs at the moment

   Nigel: Actually, there are two PRs. One is for publishing via
   GitHub Action, which has been done
   … The other one needs input

   [20]Add links to MAUR requirements w3c/dapt-reqs#23

     [20] https://github.com/w3c/dapt-reqs/pull/23


   Nigel: This PR needs a review. It addresses issue #5 that Cyril
   opened

    DAPT User Group

   Matt: Our workflow requires a post-production script, they come
   in as Word documents, but we'd like it as DAPT
   … We'd upload them to Limecraft, align them and produce a basic
   subtitle caption file
   … We'd add in any sound effects, etc.
   … We want them to support DAPT, and they'd like to connect with
   others working with DAPT

   Cyril: Can you clarify what changes Limecraft want in DAPT?

   Matt: It's not so much that they want changes. It would be good
   to have a mechanism to have dialog to ensure that aren't lots
   of different variants

   Cyril: Last time I explained that Netflix intends to release
   open source software to produce DAPT from TTAL scripts
   … An option could be to use TTAL software to produce DAPT,
   would that help?

   Matt: Yes, but for me it's about opening up the discussion
   beyond this WG

   Cyril: I can see if we have contact with them

   Nigel: There may be implementers who aren't W3C participants
   who want to compare notes. I can think of at least 3 options, 2
   of those exist
   … Existing are: the Audio Description Community Group, which
   could be expanded in scope, or create a new CG. Or if people
   don't want to come to W3C, it could be in scope for the CCSUBS
   group
   … Thirdly, we could find a home for a DAPT user group. That
   might be preferable, so it's clear. There's an IMF user group,
   and DASH-IF
   … They need funding to operate
   … Any of those could work. I see the need to compare notes on
   interoperability

   Matt: Yes, something beyond sharing the spec, which can raise
   questions that need addressing

   Cyril: At minimum, a mailing list for exchanging bug reports,
   without fear of sending reports to the spec authors
   … Publish guidelines, similar to what DASH-IF has done. A
   Community Group could be perfect for that

   Nigel: The CG provides a mailing list. Could start there, and
   see if that works for people
   … It might need a meeting structure, not frequent, every 3
   months, but to show that other people are there.
   … How to progress this? I can send messages out, but I wonder
   what's the most effective way

   Matt: I'll be at the CCSUBS meeting in Berlin, could request an
   hour there?

   Cyril: Creating a CG is easy. Could get that ready and create
   following CCSUBS

   Nigel: If we create a new one we should close the existing CG
   to avoid confusion. Or repurpose the existing one. I don't know
   if the group can be renamed

   Cyril: A timed text scripts CG. Having a CG named audio
   description might be misleading

   Nigel: Yes
   … Let's think about it, and see what we can set up. It's a good
   idea

    Test suite

   Nigel: I haven't seen any movement on the issues about tests. I
   haven't made PRs to add tests
   … Ideally we have someone else look at my analysis to see if it
   makes sense
   … I can create tests if it looks about right

   Cyril: I'll try to do that tomorrow

    Explicitly permit daptm:represents on tt, body, div, p and span
    [21]w3c/dapt#294

     [21] https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/294


   Nigel: Andreas raised the issue, but he's not here today. If
   anyone wants to look, it's a minor issue about the data model

   Nigel: Anything else on DAPT?

   (nothing)

  IMSC 1.3

    Liaison response received from EBU

   [22]Member-only link to liaison response

     [22] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-tt/2025May/0000.html


   Nigel: They asked for DAPT metadata to be allowed in IMSC
   documents. I don't think anything prevents that
   … Do we need a call out to say something about compatibility
   with IMSC?

   [23]IMSC 1.2 Foreign Element and Attributes

     [23] https://www.w3.org/TR/ttml-imsc1.2/#foreign-elements


   Cyril: From IMSC perspective DAPT is a foreign namespace

   Nigel: If you want to turn DAPT into captions, to what extend
   do you preserve existing metadata. A question about good
   practice
   … By preserving translation information in the player, you can
   use that to drive spoken subtitles
   … Data that's always been missing so far, but now we have a
   scheme for describing it
   … DAPT data can tell you if the subtitle text was translated
   from a different language, so you can use that for spoken
   subtitles

   Cyril: I don't follow

   Nigel: If there's markup to show which subtitles are
   translations, the player, if it wants, can trigger text to
   speech on those specific subtitles, to get an audible
   translation
   … I heard this in action in Holland, 10 years ago. They do it
   using broadcast subtitles, and special set top boxes. A Dutch
   news programme, in Dutch, cuts to someone speaking in English,
   and the translation was spoken by the STB. That needs the
   translation data present

   Cyril: I see

   Nigel: It would be useful to call out somewhere, whether in
   DAPT or another document

   Cyril: Could be in an appendix

   Nigel: Anything else on IMSC?

   (nothing)

  TPAC 2025 Planning

   Gary: It's the same as previous years, ask how many meeting
   slots you want, and which groups to have joint meetings with or
   avoid overlaps with
   … For us this year, it's more complicated as it's in Japan. If
   members aren't there in person we might not have quorum

   Nigel: I don't know about my attendance right now. We have to
   fill this out in about a month
   … We'll get a lot of Japanese attendees, would be useful to
   have their input
   … I'd like to be able to discuss with people involved in ARIB.
   Going there in person might help us resolve the IMSC ARIB issue
   … In terms of other work, the timing might be we can confirm
   transition of DAPT to Rec in person
   … Could also have a CG meeting
   … I'd hope we can also share progress with MEIG

   Nigel: Also Media WG and MSE carrying captions.

   Chris: Absolutely, both of those topics would be welcome,
   … happy to organise joint meetings to support that work.
   … In general, what I would suggest is request the timeslots
   now. It's easier
   … to release unneeded timeslots than to add new ones that you
   do need, late in the process.
   … Experience last year - MEIG had more agenda requests than I
   at first expected.

   Gary: That makes sense, plan for it to happen, then cancel if
   it turns out nobody can come.

   Nigel: In the past we've created an agenda page. We can do it
   in the TTWG GitHub, as a wiki or issue or discussion. I can
   transcribe what we've just said into that tomorrow
   … Which days would we want to meet?
   … There's often pressure to meet at the beginning or end of the
   week

   Chris: I thought similar to last year - MEIG could have a few
   slots on Thursday,
   … then Thursday for the Media WG, but it ends up being the
   event team that reconciles all the slots.
   … The other thing to bear in mind is that this year, because
   there was so much interest
   … in breakout sessions there are more slots during the week
   dedicated to breakout time,
   … so the format for the Wednesday is a bit different and there
   are breakouts on the other days too.
   … So there might be less time allocated for groups to fit their
   sessions in.
   … I think between those groups it might be good to come up with
   an overall structure of the week,
   … because there will be overlapping participation.
   … The other thing I would suggest is if we want to coordinate
   joint time with the APA WG.
   … We did a 3-way meeting with APA, MEIG and TTWG the past
   couple of years which was good

   Gary: They were always interesting. Might be easier in November
   because I don't think it
   … overlaps any other major events especially for likely
   attendees of our meetings.

   Nigel: Could be MEIG Monday, TTWG Tuesday, Media WG Thurdsay,
   then joint with APA on Friday

   Chris: Yes that's the kind of thing I was thinking of

   Cyril: I'd prefer having all the timed text related meetings
   all at the beginning or end of the week, not spread out
   … It's preferable to only come for just a few days rather than
   the whole week
   … But I'll follow what the group decides

   Nigel: Anything else on TPAC?

   (nothing)

  AOB - TTWG Charter Review

   Nigel: The charter review closed on the 19th. There were no
   objections, some proposed changes, that Gary and I are happy
   with
   … It looks like a formality that the group will be rechartered

   Atsushi: We're asking reviewers about the proposed changes.
   We'll proceed with the rechartering after 1 week if there are
   no comments from reviewers
   … So, to be announced next week

  Meeting close

   Nigel: Next meeting is 2025-06-05
   … Thanks everyone [adjourns meeting]


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