{Minutes} TTWG Teleconference 2025-06-05

Thanks all for attending today’s TTWG meeting. Minutes can be found in HTML format at https://www.w3.org/2025/06/05-tt-minutes.html


We made 1 Proposal, which I am raising here as a Call for Consensus, which is:

PROPOSAL: Remove Image Profile from IMSC 1.3 and create an IMSC 1.3 Text Profile as a standalone document

If there are no objections to this within our decision review period, i.e. by the time of our next call on 2025-06-19, I will declare this to be a WG Resolution.

Note that there is an accompanying Pull Request, w3c/imsc#603 Remove Image Profile<https://github.com/w3c/imsc/pull/603> : objections to the substance of that PR may be considered objections to this proposal, depending on the nature of the objection; conversely if there are any unresolved objections to this proposal, that pull request can not be merged.


Those minutes in plain text:

   [1]W3C

      [1] https://www.w3.org/


                Timed Text Working Group Teleconference

05 June 2025

   [2]Previous meeting. [3]Agenda. [4]IRC log.

      [2] https://www.w3.org/2025/05/22-tt-minutes.html

      [3] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/308

      [4] https://www.w3.org/2025/06/05-tt-irc


Attendees

   Present
          Andreas, Atsushi, Chris, Cyril, Gary, Matt_Simpson,
          Nigel, Pierre

   Regrets
          -

   Chair
          Gary, Nigel

   Scribe
          nigel, cpn

Contents

    1. [5]This meeting
    2. [6]Apply streamlined publication to all of Note track
       documents
    3. [7]DAPT
         1. [8]Test Suite
         2. [9]Pull requests
    4. [10]IMSC 1.3
    5. [11]TPAC 2025 Planning
    6. [12]AOB
    7. [13]Meeting close

Meeting minutes

  This meeting

   Nigel: [reviews the agenda]

   Nigel: Any other business or points to raise within the agenda
   items?

   (nothing)

  Apply streamlined publication to all of Note track documents

   Nigel: I think we're only waiting on tt-profile registry.
   Atsushi, how is this looking?

   Atsushi: I opened a PR

   [14]tt-profile-registry repo

     [14] https://github.com/w3c/tt-profile-registry


   Atsushi: We're in streamlined publication already for
   png-hdr-in-pr, and I've opened PRs for the other Note track
   documents

   Nigel: Any objections to going ahead and merging?

   [15]PR to add streamlined publication to TTML Profile Registry

     [15] https://github.com/w3c/tt-profile-registry/pull/85


   (none)

   Nigel: Atsushi, do you want to merge?

   Atsushi: I'll recheck it

   [16]Published TTWG Notes

     [16] https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/timed-text/publications/#note


  DAPT

    Test Suite

   Nigel: I don't think I've seen any updates on the test suite
   issues. Cyril, you said you'd hoped to review some of them

   Cyril: I had an early look, also asked a colleague. I have
   feedback on script represents that I haven't had chance to
   input on yet
   … There should be a test for the linear whitespace syntax
   … I intend to add a comment about that
   … That's the only feedback for now

    Pull requests

   [17]Explicitly permit daptm:represents on tt, body, div, p and
   span #294

     [17] https://github.com/w3c/dapt/pull/294


   Andreas: I had a quick check. It seems there's a source issue,
   but this was a while ago so need to check again

   Nigel: As far as I know this is the last substantive issue we
   plan to make a change for
   … Once we've done this we should request a new CR snapshot,
   which will trigger another 60 day exclusion period
   … Anything else on DAPT?

   (nothing)

   Cyril: Netflix wants to create some content, to demonstrate
   DAPT, give real world examples people can refer to. Are the W3C
   repos available?

   Nigel: I think a Netflix repo makes sense here, we could link
   to it from the test repo. Would that work?

   Cyril: I think so. But in other cases like AOM we've shared in
   their repos, so wanted to check what to do here

   Atsushi: We could accept examples in the test repo, things that
   aren't mandatory in the tests

   Nigel: Yes, in an examples folder, and mentioned in the ReadMe
   … Cyril, what would the licence for these be?

   Cyril: Creative Commons non-commercial, sharealike, or somesuch

   Atsushi: An example could be more complex than typical tests to
   show real world usage, so can be valuable

   Cyril: The test report is about testing the formal features of
   DAPT, but the examples I have include proprietary or dummy
   metadata from Netflix which wouldn't be tested per se

   Nigel: There is an issue for a test that includes proprietary
   metadata, where the implementation is supposed to say it's
   valid

   Cyril: Similarly, if we want an IMSC example of showing how to
   generate subtitles from DAPT
   … We could also have GitHub submodules in a Netflix repo

   Nigel: I'm happy with Atsushi's suggestion to have examples in
   the test suite, it makes them easier for people to find if
   they're in one place

   Cyril: Any restrictions on the licence?

   Nigel: Would the W3C Software Licence work?

   [18]IMSC Test suite licence

     [18] https://github.com/w3c/imsc-tests?tab=Licence-1-ov-file#readme


   Atsushi: It should be fine to apply an open source licence, as
   the test repo isn't an official W3C spec repo

   Nigel: The IMSC content is dual licenced under BSD 3 clause and
   W3C Test Suite Licence, so you can choose

   Nigel: Cyril and Atsushi, please check on the licences

   Atsushi: I believe many WGs use other licences like MIT or
   Creative Commons for examples

   Pierre: [19]w3c/IMSC-1.1_Text_TestContent
   … This is under a BSD 3 Clause Licence, so that's possible

     [19] https://github.com/w3c/IMSC-1.1_Text_TestContent


   [20]IMSC-1.1_Text_TestContent (BSD 3 clause licence)

     [20] https://github.com/w3c/IMSC-1.1_Text_TestContent?tab=BSD-3-Clause-1-ov-file#readme


   Cyril: Was that required to be BSD?

   <atsushi> [21]https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/blob/

   master/LICENSE.md

     [21] https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/blob/master/LICENSE.md


   Pierre: No, it was offered to W3C and they accepted it. So I
   suggest doing that here

   Atsushi: The Web Platform Tests uses the BSD 3 Clause licence,
   so I believe there's no strict requirements for tests and
   examples for W3C
   … WebXR has an examples repo that uses MIT licence

   Nigel: I think it's up to Netflix to determine which licence
   they're happy with

   Cyril: I'll get back to you

  IMSC 1.3

   Nigel: The PR preview isn't working!
   … Can someone look at it?

   Atsushi: I'll check it later

   Nigel: Are we ready for FPWD publication?

   Pierre: Nearly, I think we should allow until the end of the
   month at most to make a decision on whether to remove the Image
   Profile

   Nigel: On 24 April we said we'd consider any liaison responses
   … We have a response from EBU. No concern raised about dropping
   Image Profile. Is that the same for you, Pierre?

   Pierre: Yes, maybe some potential use. But any potential user
   would have feedback on the PNG version. I haven't had feedback
   saying people want to use it or improvements they want to see

   Nigel: Has anyone else heard views?

   (nothing)

   Nigel: The EBU response said they don't use Image Profile, and
   no members use it in their operations
   … They said it would be useful to include DAPT metadata in IMSC
   documents
   … I need to analyse it, but I think it can just be done
   … It's foreign to IMSC, so IMSC already allows that
   … Might be useful to have an informative section in DAPT and
   IMSC 1.3 to give an example
   … So we have a decision to make about dropping Image Profile.
   We've done the outreach, not heard anyone request it. Pierre
   created a PR

   Pierre: My concerns are with alt text, this was permitted with
   IMSC 1.1 and 1.2, but the alt text is there to support image,
   it would be weird to keep that in Text Profile if the main
   application is actually image
   … It would be the first time prohibiting a feature previously
   allowed so now IMSC 1.3 wouldn't be a strict superset
   … We might find lots of nits in the spec on removing Image
   Profile

   [22]imsc1.2 ittm:altText

     [22] https://www.w3.org/TR/ttml-imsc1.2/#ittm-altText


   Nigel: [Reads the ittm:altText section in IMSC1.2]
   … That suggests to me there may be a use for doing it for text
   … I might suggest a quite strict approach, choose one of two
   things
   … Either keep it as is in 1.3, or we say it's a breaking change
   and so we need a semantic version upgrade to 2.0

   Pierre: Would be fine if we limited to that, but worry about
   other deprecated things

   Nigel: I was only thinking of that one

   Nigel: A major version change could allow us to remove other
   permitted deprecated things

   Pierre: Most of the text of the feature will be gone. If we
   ever need to review Image Profile, we'll need to revise that
   text again
   … The description of the feature would be much shorter, as most
   of it is focused on alternate text for img

   Nigel: The other permitted deprecated things are in Text
   Profile: Z-index, aspect ratio, and progressively decodable
   … We might end up breaking existing documents

   Pierre: And inadvertently, that's the issue I see
   … I'll add it back
   … I'll do another editorial pass, then will be ready for a CfC
   for FPWD

   Nigel: I haven't finished looking through it yet, so will
   finalise my review

   Nigel: Any other comments?

   (nothing)

   PROPOSAL: Remove Image Profile from IMSC 1.3

   Pierre: I'm thinking of this as publishing a new version that's
   only a Text Profile

   Nigel: Okay, I'll modify the proposal:

   PROPOSAL: Remove Image Profile from IMSC 1.3 and create an IMSC
   1.3 Text Profile as a standalone document

   Nigel: Is everyone OK with this approach? I will highlight it
   as a CfC in the minutes.

   Pierre: Thanks to everyone getting the feedback

  TPAC 2025 Planning

   Gary: I haven't spent much time on this

   Nigel: Last meeting we said do similar to last year. There was
   discussion in MEIG too.

   Chris: Nothing changes - still thinking of a joint meeting on
   the Monday with APA perhaps later
   … in the week but we haven't discussed with APA.
   … I'm wondering whether this group would want to meet later in
   the week or if we could get all
   … our business done on the Monday and Tuesday and then we could
   try to fit APA in on the Monday/Tuesday
   … schedule. I don't know what APA will be able to accommodate,
   or if they have their own plan.

   Nigel: Sounds like an action for Chairs - should I get in touch
   with the APA Chairs (Matt and Janina)

   Chris: Good idea, start a thread between you and me and them.

   Nigel: And Gary of course!

   Gary: The GitHub issue is relatively minimal because there are
   only 4 slots to request / say is acceptable per day.
   … The CSS WG said they wanted 8 slots and they're all good.
   … We can also say we'd like all our slots on one day and not
   overlap with MEIG and Media WG

   Nigel: Do we also ask for joint meetings?

   Gary: Yes we can ask for that too.
   … Once the issue is created we can add comments if we get more
   information
   … They want us to do this as soon as possible but before the
   20th, but if we need to we will have
   … one more meeting scheduled before the deadline.

   Nigel: I propose we open the issue, ask for 2 slots on Monday
   and Tuesday, and say we don't mind which slots, avoid overlap
   with MEIG and Media WG, then update the issue after we've
   talked with APA

   Chris: Only 2 slots?

   Nigel: How long are the slots?

   Chris: 90 minutes

   Nigel: Oh, then 4 then!

   Gary: Some are 2 hours

   Chris: You don't know what you'll get unless you're very
   specific

   Gary: We can ask for 4 slots and say it would be nice not to be
   split across multiple days

   Chris: Yes

   Gary: I might not be there in person, so a morning slot is
   better for people in the US
   … Timing would be 7 or 8pm east coast, 4 or 5pm west coast
   … It'll be standard time in US again

   Chris: So select early slots only or run the meeting all day?

   Gary: Request early slots on Monday and Tuesday and we can
   adjust agenda topics to fit

  AOB

   Nigel: We're now under our new charter

   [23]2025-06-03 TTWG Charter

     [23] https://www.w3.org/2025/06/timed-text-wg-charter.html


  Meeting close

   Nigel: Thanks everyone, we're slightly over time, let's
   adjourn. See you in 2 weeks.

   [24]2025-06-19 agenda

     [24] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/309



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