{Minutes} TTWG Meeting 2023-06-22

Thanks all for attending today’s TTWG meeting. Minutes can be found in HTML format at https://www.w3.org/2023/06/22-tt-minutes.html

In text format:


      [1] https://www.w3.org/

                Timed Text Working Group Teleconference

22 June 2023

   [2]Previous meeting. [3]Agenda. [4]IRC log.

      [2] https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-tt-minutes.html

      [3] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/254

      [4] https://www.w3.org/2023/06/22-tt-irc


          Atsushi, Chris, Chris_Needham, Cyril, Nigel, Pierre



          cpn, nigel


    1. [5]This meeting
    2. [6]IMSC-HRM transition to CR
    3. [7]DAPT
         1. [8]Consider identifying the original language on top
            of the current language w3c/dapt#148
         2. [9]Clarify how to use SSML with DAPT w3c/dapt#121
    4. [10]TPAC 2023 planning
    5. [11]Meeting close

Meeting minutes

  This meeting

   Nigel: Today we have:
   … IMSC-HRM transition to CR
   … DAPT including issues and pull requests for discussion
   … TPAC 2023 planning
   … Any other business, or points to cover within the above?

   no other business

  IMSC-HRM transition to CR

   Nigel: We have transition to CR, thank you Atsushi and Pierre


     [12] https://www.w3.org/TR/2023/CR-imsc-hrm-20230622/

   Atsushi: It was published today
   … It was announce to the AC and Chairs, not sure if it's on the
   blog yet

   Nigel: It is in the latest news, yes

   [13]IMSC-HRM CR Publication News post

     [13] https://www.w3.org/news/2023/w3c-invites-implementations-of-imsc-hypothetical-render-model/

   Nigel: Next steps, to exit CR we have to have tests
   … How we do that will be an interesting conversation
   … Do we have a repo already?

   [14]IMSC HRM Tests repository

     [14] https://github.com/w3c/imsc-hrm-tests/

   Pierre: I have an action item to do that, we should issue a
   call for content

   Nigel: I don't mind splitting the tasks

   Pierre: I'll get started on creating synthetic tests, and if
   you have the chance to start on the call for content, we can
   circle back

   Nigel: That works
   … I'm not working during most of August, lots to do before then

   Pierre: Maybe start with the call for content? I could start a
   document and send to you
   … Thanks everyone for getting the CR out

   Nigel: I second that
   … Anything else on this?



   Nigel: We have been merging some PRs, and have begun the
   horizontal review tasks
   … There's some complexity with HR, particularly accessibility,
   where they have 2 checklists, neither is markdown

   [15]FAST checklist

     [15] https://w3c.github.io/fast/checklist.html

   Nigel: The FAST checklist has a lot of rows and notes in the
   middle column, and subsections. Does anyone know of a good way
   to get this into markdown that we can easily edit?

   [16]DAPT Wiki

     [16] https://github.com/w3c/dapt/wiki

   Nigel: We've created pages in the DAPT wiki to work on it
   … So we post the checklists there, rather than in GitHub
   issues, and refer to them in the HR requests
   … Accessibility, Privacy and Security, and TAG
   … Cyril and I will work on completing those
   … I also created a wide review section in the wiki. I have a
   task to contact other organisation, and do other outreach
   … For example, I presented DAPT to the EBU timed text group in
   May, and then in MEIG, also last week to the EBU access
   services experts plenary (hosted by RTS in Belgrade)

   [17]Slides for EBU Access Services Experts meeting in Belgrade,

     [17] https://bbc.github.io/accessibility-presentations/nigel_megitt_ebu_access_services_2023/index.html

   Nigel: I have been talking about it, but not writing, so need
   to do that next

   Atsushi: On the markdown, I think I copied the first column as

   Nigel: Has any change been made since you did that?

   [18]Similar review markdown for webxr

     [18] https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr-ar-module/issues/84

   Atsushi: I think I can do the same for DAPT

   Nigel: Yes please

   Nigel: Setting up auto-publishing is done and works nicely
   [removes bullet from the agenda]

   Nigel: Let's look at issues and PRs

   Cyril: I saw your comments, I need time to address them, I
   don't see anything major
   … Have we made a decision about original language attribute?

    Consider identifying the original language on top of the current
    language [19]w3c/dapt#148

    [19] https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/148

   Github: [20]w3c/dapt#148

     [20] https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/148

   Cyril: In my work to round trip between TTAL and DAPT I found
   one piece of information missing, useful in pre-recorded script
   is useful to know the original language even if you don't have
   the script any more

   Nigel: That's having the original language text?

   Cyril: Yes. But wondering what's wrong with carrying the
   original language text all the way through. Don't think we're
   concerned about the size of the document

   Nigel: Don't know enough about the use cases to know if it's
   useful. If there's a question over the accuracy of translation
   and there's a pivot language involved, you may want to know
   which was used for translation, the pivot or the original
   … How do we discover if this is actually needed?

   Cyril: I need to survey our Netflix users
   … The lang source attribute has two values: original and
   translation. We could add a third, "pivot"?
   … I'll consult internally and then we can decide whether to
   merge this or not

    Clarify how to use SSML with DAPT [21]w3c/dapt#121

     [21] https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/121

   Github: [22]w3c/dapt#121

     [22] https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/121

   Nigel: At the moment, in TTML2 we have two audio styling
   attributes that direct the use of text to speech
   … They are derived from SSML semantics
   … But the vocabulary and structure is different
   … An obvious direction we should plan for is to allow a richer
   feature set from SSML so people can direct the text to speech
   more directly
   … We could define all the syntax in TTML and a mapping to SSML,
   or inject SSML into the TTML document
   … But then, what happens to the two bits of vocabulary already
   in TTML2
   … If injecting SSML, do it with an element structure or an
   … The new thing, is thinking about the voice characteristics.
   Maybe a good idea is to associate the voice with the agent,
   then your mapping to SSML would pull in that metadata and use
   … We always had a rule that metadata doesn't drive
   presentation, but we'd be going against that

   Cyril: The one other detail, if we were to embed SSML in DAPT,
   the TTML behaviour is to prune elements not in the TTML
   namespace, for validation
   … I wonder if the entire element would be ignored for the
   purpose of rendering, or would its internal text content be
   used. That would make a big difference

   Pierre: So if you wrap text in an unknown element, would it
   still be used?

   Cyril: Yes, it's something you can do in HTML
   … Nigel, I think your point about using agent to indicate voice
   characteristics, I like the idea
   … Not a problem in the metadata vocabulary. I think it's a good
   way to do it

   Nigel: OK, it sets us down an interesting path, of how to map
   SSML semantics into TTML. Need to plan ahead, do a thought
   experiment of the best mapping into TTML if we need them in the

   Cyril: Your comment in the PR 157 about proprietary metadata is


     [23] https://github.com/w3c/dapt/pull/157#discussion_r1234279959

   Cyril: The metadata we're thinking about is what speech
   generation engine you want to use, etc. Does SSML cover all

   Nigel: [Reviewing the details] They go quite far, I think
   … The synthesis processor specifically, I'm not sure you can
   … I think the idea is you can pass the SSML to any processor,
   but doesn't contain a pointer to the synthesis processor itself
   … I would need to check, but I think that's how it is
   … Yes, the synthesis processor external

   Nigel: For TTML validation it would prune, also imscJS

   Cyril: Is there a normative statement for that?

   Pierre: There's a note, if you try to feed a TTML2 document
   with ruby to a TTML1 processor, it may prune the entire element
   … I wouldn't count on the presentation processsor keeping the
   content of the element
   … Why not use a span with the content if you want to keep it?

   Cyril: Need to define a transformation between TTML and SSML
   could be in XSLT

   Nigel: The [construct intermediate document] process prunes
   elements if they are not "presentation related"
   … You could assert that some SSML element must be included in
   some presentational element in DAPT
   … A simple reading, you wouldn't expect that

   [24]comment in imscJS

     [24] https://github.com/sandflow/imscJS/blob/7716bccfa716be4df0bcd3a8ac0809d1ef8e2023/src/main/js/doc.js#LL555C1-L556C1

   Cyril: If your implementation is both a TTML and SSML
   processor, you may keep it

   Pierre: There's a comment in imscJS about ignoring elements not
  in TTML namespace if they're not inside a metadata element

   Cyril: In DAPT we could say something about how to mix SSML and
   TTML, that would be defining behaviour in fuzzy areas in TTML
   … The benefit of basing DAPT on TTML is you can embed it in
   generic TTML processors

   Pierre: If you want the benefit of TTML, stay with TTML. But if
   you need something other than TTML, imscJS or other processors
   would eventually recognise it
   … If not needed, don't do it, but if it's needed it's needed

   Cyril: Mapping to a different stucture seems like unnecessary
   work, and would have to be maintained

   Pierre: What's different between them?

   +1 to avoiding unnecessary work, which it seems to be

   Nigel: More granular directives for text to speech

   Pierre: Do the opposite, embed TTML in SSML?

   Cyril: But the DAPT document is the whole thing
   … The example I put in issue 121, is because Netflix uses some
   SSML engine for voice synthesis
   … At the moment we have a proprietary TTAL spec, generate SSML,
   then send to an API
   … Speech rate is covered, but there's a phoneme span that gives

   Pierre: In the issue there is a link to a new spec for spoken
   presentation in HTML. It uses attributes instead of elements

   Nigel: It describes both strategies, seems they're not sure
   which is the best to use

   Cyril: So we could say use the same attribute
   … That mapping works for us too

   Pierre: Presumably. HTML has the same issues as us

   Nigel: These things can be on spans

   Pierre: And semantically they should be, they convey additional
   semantics on text

   Cyril: We could adopt their strategy but not their spec

   Nigel: We could define a dapts: namespace that exactly map to
   the SSML voice element content

   Cyril: Which group is working on the spoken presentation in
   … It's a TF in APA WG

   Nigel: The attribute approach seems nice, we're gravitating
   towards that

   Cyril: I prefer the multi-attrbute rather than single attribute

   SUMMARY: Gravitating towards multi-attribute approach maybe in
   a ssml-specific DAPT namespace

  TPAC 2023 planning

   [25]TPAC schedule

     [25] https://www.w3.org/2023/09/TPAC/schedule.html

   Nigel: The TPAC schedule is published, we meet on Tuesday 12
   … We need to cover joint meetings. APA WG has asked for a joint
   meeting, Thursday afternoon
   … I said that may not be a good time for those going to IBC,
   but it may be possible
   … Their agenda is markup for chapter titles, inter-linear
   publications, specialised handling of media, Music XML,
   multiple tracks of sign language
   … Not sure we'll have views on any of them

   Chris: I think this is a multi-way group meeting. I've also
   been talking with them.
   … They've come to MEIG as well.
   … To talk about the Media Accessibility User Requirements -
   they want to restart work on it.
   … I haven't discussed any detail of what that might involve
   with them.
   … I'm planning to in the next MEIG meeting.
   … Later there will be a TPAC meeting which I think the request
   is TTWG + MEIG + Media WG + APA
   … Basically everybody media!

   Nigel: So I suggest saying yes, but propose talking about SSML
   in HTML too

   Chris: Sounds good to me since that document is their work

   Nigel: I don't know if there's a better timeslot than the
   Thursday or Friday?

   Chris: I think I suggested that one. Maybe Tuesday morning?

   Nigel: That's when we're meeting.

   Chris: I avoided Tuesday afternoon for the AC.

   Nigel: Let's say yes and worry about the timing later.

   Chris: The other thing I wanted to talk about is a meeting with
   Media WG and MEIG
   … to look at the Text Track API and potentially other things if
   you have them
   … For that, we could probably cover it in the MEIG Monday time
   rather than figuring out a new timeslot.

   Nigel: Works for me. Only slight concern is prep time for TTWG
   but that's a second order problem.
   … In the past we were able to meet as TTWG before any joint

   Chris: Shall I pencil that in for the Monday morning, and then
   figure out the detail of what we want to cover?

   Nigel: Sounds good to me
   … Agenda-wise, we don't have anyone active now on WebVTT. It's
   been stuck without republication for years
   … TPAC could be time to discuss that
   … That could be good to raise, just to seek direction, explain
   current situation and see if anyone wants to step up

   Pierre: We've had this discussion over the years. Absent
   anything else, I'd expect WebVTT to move to WHATWG
   … The drawback is it creates an additional forum for people
   interested in timed text. Not sure that's a good outcome for
   the community


   Nigel: It's a possible agenda item

   Pierre: It's a thing for W3C strategy, what does it want to do
   with WebVTT?

 Meeting close

   Nigel: We're out of time for today, thank you Chris for
   scribing, and thanks everyone. [adjourns meeting]

    Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by
    [26]scribe.perl version 210 (Wed Jan 11 19:21:32 2023 UTC).

     [26] https://w3c.github.io/scribe2/scribedoc.html

Received on Thursday, 22 June 2023 16:34:40 UTC