- From: Nigel Megitt <nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
- Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2023 16:34:19 +0000
- To: TTWG <public-tt@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <203BCC6B-23AE-41C2-8CAB-4C13E355C059@bbc.co.uk>
Thanks all for attending today’s TTWG meeting. Minutes can be found in HTML format at https://www.w3.org/2023/06/22-tt-minutes.html In text format: [1]W3C [1] https://www.w3.org/ Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 22 June 2023 [2]Previous meeting. [3]Agenda. [4]IRC log. [2] https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-tt-minutes.html [3] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/254 [4] https://www.w3.org/2023/06/22-tt-irc Attendees Present Atsushi, Chris, Chris_Needham, Cyril, Nigel, Pierre Regrets Andreas Chair Nigel Scribe cpn, nigel Contents 1. [5]This meeting 2. [6]IMSC-HRM transition to CR 3. [7]DAPT 1. [8]Consider identifying the original language on top of the current language w3c/dapt#148 2. [9]Clarify how to use SSML with DAPT w3c/dapt#121 4. [10]TPAC 2023 planning 5. [11]Meeting close Meeting minutes This meeting Nigel: Today we have: … IMSC-HRM transition to CR … DAPT including issues and pull requests for discussion … TPAC 2023 planning … Any other business, or points to cover within the above? no other business IMSC-HRM transition to CR Nigel: We have transition to CR, thank you Atsushi and Pierre [12]IMSC-HRM CRS [12] https://www.w3.org/TR/2023/CR-imsc-hrm-20230622/ Atsushi: It was published today … It was announce to the AC and Chairs, not sure if it's on the blog yet Nigel: It is in the latest news, yes [13]IMSC-HRM CR Publication News post [13] https://www.w3.org/news/2023/w3c-invites-implementations-of-imsc-hypothetical-render-model/ Nigel: Next steps, to exit CR we have to have tests … How we do that will be an interesting conversation … Do we have a repo already? [14]IMSC HRM Tests repository [14] https://github.com/w3c/imsc-hrm-tests/ Pierre: I have an action item to do that, we should issue a call for content Nigel: I don't mind splitting the tasks Pierre: I'll get started on creating synthetic tests, and if you have the chance to start on the call for content, we can circle back Nigel: That works … I'm not working during most of August, lots to do before then Pierre: Maybe start with the call for content? I could start a document and send to you … Thanks everyone for getting the CR out Nigel: I second that … Anything else on this? (nothing) DAPT Nigel: We have been merging some PRs, and have begun the horizontal review tasks … There's some complexity with HR, particularly accessibility, where they have 2 checklists, neither is markdown [15]FAST checklist [15] https://w3c.github.io/fast/checklist.html Nigel: The FAST checklist has a lot of rows and notes in the middle column, and subsections. Does anyone know of a good way to get this into markdown that we can easily edit? [16]DAPT Wiki [16] https://github.com/w3c/dapt/wiki Nigel: We've created pages in the DAPT wiki to work on it … So we post the checklists there, rather than in GitHub issues, and refer to them in the HR requests … Accessibility, Privacy and Security, and TAG … Cyril and I will work on completing those … I also created a wide review section in the wiki. I have a task to contact other organisation, and do other outreach … For example, I presented DAPT to the EBU timed text group in May, and then in MEIG, also last week to the EBU access services experts plenary (hosted by RTS in Belgrade) [17]Slides for EBU Access Services Experts meeting in Belgrade, 2023-06-16 [17] https://bbc.github.io/accessibility-presentations/nigel_megitt_ebu_access_services_2023/index.html Nigel: I have been talking about it, but not writing, so need to do that next Atsushi: On the markdown, I think I copied the first column as text Nigel: Has any change been made since you did that? [18]Similar review markdown for webxr [18] https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr-ar-module/issues/84 Atsushi: I think I can do the same for DAPT Nigel: Yes please Nigel: Setting up auto-publishing is done and works nicely [removes bullet from the agenda] Nigel: Let's look at issues and PRs Cyril: I saw your comments, I need time to address them, I don't see anything major … Have we made a decision about original language attribute? Consider identifying the original language on top of the current language [19]w3c/dapt#148 [19] https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/148 Github: [20]w3c/dapt#148 [20] https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/148 Cyril: In my work to round trip between TTAL and DAPT I found one piece of information missing, useful in pre-recorded script is useful to know the original language even if you don't have the script any more Nigel: That's having the original language text? Cyril: Yes. But wondering what's wrong with carrying the original language text all the way through. Don't think we're concerned about the size of the document Nigel: Don't know enough about the use cases to know if it's useful. If there's a question over the accuracy of translation and there's a pivot language involved, you may want to know which was used for translation, the pivot or the original … How do we discover if this is actually needed? Cyril: I need to survey our Netflix users … The lang source attribute has two values: original and translation. We could add a third, "pivot"? … I'll consult internally and then we can decide whether to merge this or not Clarify how to use SSML with DAPT [21]w3c/dapt#121 [21] https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/121 Github: [22]w3c/dapt#121 [22] https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/121 Nigel: At the moment, in TTML2 we have two audio styling attributes that direct the use of text to speech … They are derived from SSML semantics … But the vocabulary and structure is different … An obvious direction we should plan for is to allow a richer feature set from SSML so people can direct the text to speech more directly … We could define all the syntax in TTML and a mapping to SSML, or inject SSML into the TTML document … But then, what happens to the two bits of vocabulary already in TTML2 … If injecting SSML, do it with an element structure or an attribute? … The new thing, is thinking about the voice characteristics. Maybe a good idea is to associate the voice with the agent, then your mapping to SSML would pull in that metadata and use it … We always had a rule that metadata doesn't drive presentation, but we'd be going against that Cyril: The one other detail, if we were to embed SSML in DAPT, the TTML behaviour is to prune elements not in the TTML namespace, for validation … I wonder if the entire element would be ignored for the purpose of rendering, or would its internal text content be used. That would make a big difference Pierre: So if you wrap text in an unknown element, would it still be used? Cyril: Yes, it's something you can do in HTML … Nigel, I think your point about using agent to indicate voice characteristics, I like the idea … Not a problem in the metadata vocabulary. I think it's a good way to do it Nigel: OK, it sets us down an interesting path, of how to map SSML semantics into TTML. Need to plan ahead, do a thought experiment of the best mapping into TTML if we need them in the future Cyril: Your comment in the PR 157 about proprietary metadata is relevant [23]https://github.com/w3c/dapt/pull/157#discussion_r1234279959 [23] https://github.com/w3c/dapt/pull/157#discussion_r1234279959 Cyril: The metadata we're thinking about is what speech generation engine you want to use, etc. Does SSML cover all that? Nigel: [Reviewing the details] They go quite far, I think … The synthesis processor specifically, I'm not sure you can specify … I think the idea is you can pass the SSML to any processor, but doesn't contain a pointer to the synthesis processor itself … I would need to check, but I think that's how it is … Yes, the synthesis processor external Nigel: For TTML validation it would prune, also imscJS rendering Cyril: Is there a normative statement for that? Pierre: There's a note, if you try to feed a TTML2 document with ruby to a TTML1 processor, it may prune the entire element … I wouldn't count on the presentation processsor keeping the content of the element … Why not use a span with the content if you want to keep it? Cyril: Need to define a transformation between TTML and SSML could be in XSLT Nigel: The [construct intermediate document] process prunes elements if they are not "presentation related" … You could assert that some SSML element must be included in some presentational element in DAPT … A simple reading, you wouldn't expect that [24]comment in imscJS [24] https://github.com/sandflow/imscJS/blob/7716bccfa716be4df0bcd3a8ac0809d1ef8e2023/src/main/js/doc.js#LL555C1-L556C1 Cyril: If your implementation is both a TTML and SSML processor, you may keep it Pierre: There's a comment in imscJS about ignoring elements not in TTML namespace if they're not inside a metadata element Cyril: In DAPT we could say something about how to mix SSML and TTML, that would be defining behaviour in fuzzy areas in TTML … The benefit of basing DAPT on TTML is you can embed it in generic TTML processors Pierre: If you want the benefit of TTML, stay with TTML. But if you need something other than TTML, imscJS or other processors would eventually recognise it … If not needed, don't do it, but if it's needed it's needed Cyril: Mapping to a different stucture seems like unnecessary work, and would have to be maintained Pierre: What's different between them? +1 to avoiding unnecessary work, which it seems to be Nigel: More granular directives for text to speech Pierre: Do the opposite, embed TTML in SSML? Cyril: But the DAPT document is the whole thing … The example I put in issue 121, is because Netflix uses some SSML engine for voice synthesis … At the moment we have a proprietary TTAL spec, generate SSML, then send to an API … Speech rate is covered, but there's a phoneme span that gives pronunciation Pierre: In the issue there is a link to a new spec for spoken presentation in HTML. It uses attributes instead of elements Nigel: It describes both strategies, seems they're not sure which is the best to use Cyril: So we could say use the same attribute … That mapping works for us too Pierre: Presumably. HTML has the same issues as us Nigel: These things can be on spans Pierre: And semantically they should be, they convey additional semantics on text Cyril: We could adopt their strategy but not their spec Nigel: We could define a dapts: namespace that exactly map to the SSML voice element content Cyril: Which group is working on the spoken presentation in HTML? … It's a TF in APA WG Nigel: The attribute approach seems nice, we're gravitating towards that Cyril: I prefer the multi-attrbute rather than single attribute approach SUMMARY: Gravitating towards multi-attribute approach maybe in a ssml-specific DAPT namespace TPAC 2023 planning [25]TPAC schedule [25] https://www.w3.org/2023/09/TPAC/schedule.html Nigel: The TPAC schedule is published, we meet on Tuesday 12 September … We need to cover joint meetings. APA WG has asked for a joint meeting, Thursday afternoon … I said that may not be a good time for those going to IBC, but it may be possible … Their agenda is markup for chapter titles, inter-linear publications, specialised handling of media, Music XML, multiple tracks of sign language … Not sure we'll have views on any of them Chris: I think this is a multi-way group meeting. I've also been talking with them. … They've come to MEIG as well. … To talk about the Media Accessibility User Requirements - they want to restart work on it. … I haven't discussed any detail of what that might involve with them. … I'm planning to in the next MEIG meeting. … Later there will be a TPAC meeting which I think the request is TTWG + MEIG + Media WG + APA … Basically everybody media! Nigel: So I suggest saying yes, but propose talking about SSML in HTML too Chris: Sounds good to me since that document is their work item. Nigel: I don't know if there's a better timeslot than the Thursday or Friday? Chris: I think I suggested that one. Maybe Tuesday morning? Nigel: That's when we're meeting. Chris: I avoided Tuesday afternoon for the AC. Nigel: Let's say yes and worry about the timing later. Chris: The other thing I wanted to talk about is a meeting with Media WG and MEIG … to look at the Text Track API and potentially other things if you have them … For that, we could probably cover it in the MEIG Monday time rather than figuring out a new timeslot. Nigel: Works for me. Only slight concern is prep time for TTWG but that's a second order problem. … In the past we were able to meet as TTWG before any joint meetings. Chris: Shall I pencil that in for the Monday morning, and then figure out the detail of what we want to cover? Nigel: Sounds good to me … Agenda-wise, we don't have anyone active now on WebVTT. It's been stuck without republication for years … TPAC could be time to discuss that … That could be good to raise, just to seek direction, explain current situation and see if anyone wants to step up Pierre: We've had this discussion over the years. Absent anything else, I'd expect WebVTT to move to WHATWG … The drawback is it creates an additional forum for people interested in timed text. Not sure that's a good outcome for the community +1 Nigel: It's a possible agenda item Pierre: It's a thing for W3C strategy, what does it want to do with WebVTT? Meeting close Nigel: We're out of time for today, thank you Chris for scribing, and thanks everyone. [adjourns meeting] Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by [26]scribe.perl version 210 (Wed Jan 11 19:21:32 2023 UTC). [26] https://w3c.github.io/scribe2/scribedoc.html
Received on Thursday, 22 June 2023 16:34:40 UTC