{Minutes} TTWG Meeting 2023-06-08

Thanks all for attending today’s TTWG meeting. Minutes can be found in HTML format at https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-tt-minutes.html

Following the Call for Consensus to transition IMSC-HRM to CR, we made one Resolution<https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-tt-minutes.html#r01>:

RESOLUTION: Transition IMSC-HRM to Candidate Recommendation

Since this follows the conclusion of the call for consensus period then, as per our decision policy, there is no further review period.

In text format:


      [1] https://www.w3.org/

                Timed Text Working Group Teleconference

08 June 2023

   [2]Previous meeting. [3]Agenda. [4]IRC log.

      [2] https://www.w3.org/2023/05/25-tt-minutes.html

      [3] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/253

      [4] https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-tt-irc


          Andreas, Cyril, Nigel, Pierre

          Atsushi, Gary




    1. [5]This meeting, plus Chair news
    2. [6]IMSC-HRM
    3. [7]DAPT
         1. [8]Netflix TTAL <⟶ DAPT round tripping
    4. [9]TPAC 2023 planning
    5. [10]Meeting close
    6. [11]Summary of resolutions

Meeting minutes

  This meeting, plus Chair news

   Nigel: Gary sent his regrets for today - he's actually no
   longer at Mux, and is having to step
   … away from W3C work for the time being, so the de facto status
   is we have one Chair at this moment.
   … Agenda for today:
   … DAPT, including a demo from Cyril
   … also still on the agenda I retained the fontVariant
   discussion topic, and TPAC planning, in case we want to cover
   … Is there any other business?

   no other business


   Nigel: Looking at the responses to the CfC to transition to CR,
   … I see 2 approvals, 0 objections, so I declare we have
   … The Pull request at [12]w3c/imsc-hrm#59 has 2 positive
   reviews, no requests for change.
   … (different reviewers than those who responded to the CfC)

     [12] https://github.com/w3c/imsc-hrm/pull/59

   RESOLUTION: Transition IMSC-HRM to Candidate Recommendation

   Nigel: We now need Atsushi's help to make that happen, I think.
   … Is there anything else to say on this, aside from thank you
   to everyone for your input on this?

   Pierre: Thank you Nigel, on my todo list is creating the tests
   and a draft call for content that we should send around.

   Nigel: Sounds good

   Pierre: I can have that done for the next meeting.
   … Do you have any specific input?

   Nigel: I don't, right now, I'll review though!

   Pierre: Of course! But anything else a priori?

   Nigel: I'd just be calling for content and/or implementations.

   Pierre: Of course, yes.
   … We should probably do a more generic call and then a specific
   focused call to media companies who may not have

   Nigel: We need to demonstrate implementation so we should be
   clear that their responses can be held private,
   … and that we are interested to know the tools used to create
   the content.

   Pierre: They're only interested in the content they generate.
   We shouldn't over complicate this.

   Nigel: If it turns out they have common authoring tools we
   would want to know that.

   Pierre: I would not make that compulsory because it would put
   them off.
   … If we make it hard for non-technical people to respond then
   they will not respond.
   … If we need to go to vendors and figure out what was used, we
   aren't going to bother.
   … It will be hard enough to get content, without the actual
   workflow as well.

   Andreas: If it is not really needed for exit criteria then I
   would say it is voluntary information.
   … If there are 2-3 authoring tools that should be sufficient
   for complying with the exit criteria.

   Nigel: That's why I'm making this point: I think it is
   necessary for the exit criteria
   … We should allow people to provide content for our inspection.
   … The alternative is to ask providers to give us the results of
   running the HRM on their content, they
   … don't have to show us the content at all.

   Andreas: Re the authoring tools, if you ask for content you
   could just say that we are happy to receive
   … information about the authoring tool if it is available. I
   don't think you would go a second time to ask them again.
   … If providers have a single chain, common in Germany, and they
   have the information, then they can provide it.

   Nigel: checking our exit criteria, I agree, since we only need
   >=1 content implementation + >1 validating implementation,
   … or >=2 validating implementations, we don't actually need
   multiple content implementations, minimally.
   … It would be nice to have.
   … I think we're in agreement now, we just need to know there's
   at least 1 authoring tool out there.

   Pierre: Yes.

   Nigel: Any more?

   Pierre: No, thanks for the discussion.

   Nigel: This is why we're here!


   Nigel: I presented DAPT work to the MEIG on Tuesday

   [13]MEIG minutes 2023-06-06

     [13] https://www.w3.org/2023/06/06-me-minutes.html

   Nigel: It was useful I think.
   … I also will be presenting it to the EBU Access Services
   Experts plenary on Friday next week.

   [14]Slides for next week's presentation

     [14] https://bbc.github.io/accessibility-presentations/nigel_megitt_ebu_access_services_2023/index.html

   Nigel: I'm regarding this as part of the Wide Review invitation
   … But I still have on my to do list requesting HR and WR from
   liaisons and others.
  … We still have CR must-have issues open.

   Cyril: I was reading the minutes from the MEIG meeting. Kaz
   asked about the ordering of words in Japanese
   … translations - he asked how to deal with word order
   difference. Did you answer that?

   Nigel: Yes, I did.

   Cyril: His point is about the structure of the language. I can
   show you an example.

    Netflix TTAL <⟶ DAPT round tripping

   Cyril: [shares screen]
   … As you know Netflix has been working on the TTAL language and
   is standardising it,
   … and the idea is to demonstrate that lossless roundtripping
   with DAPT can be done.
   … The code I wrote is not yet open source, I'm thinking about
   open sourcing it.
   … It would help e.g. a tool vendor that supports TTAL already
   to use as a front-end to convert XML to JSON
   … with low effort.
   … Similarly if they produce JSON they could use JSON → XML
   conversion to deliver the standard XML to
   … streaming services like Netflix.
   … I can show you some inputs I have been using.
   … [shows a TTAL JSON extract from a movie]
   … Lots of proprietary information
   … You can see frame based start and end timing, annotations
   … in XML [shows an equivalent DAPT XML document]
   … metadata, styling, layout and events
   … begin, paragraphs that contain text, with daptm attributes,
   here showing the original language.
   … This is work in progress.
   … There's some Netflix proprietary information in nttm
   namespace, Netflix's own.
   … I'm looking to see if anything needs to be mapped to daptm
   that is not yet mapped.
   … One of them is the original language - we carry that even if
   there's no event in that language.
   … [shows another example of DAPT for a different movie]
   … This is Japanese, translation, but it doesn't say the
   original language anywhere.
   … That may be an extension to consider. I will file an issue.
   … I had no particular issue converting TTAL JSON to DAPT and
   … Small details maybe.
   … For example, looking at metadata, I used the
   ebuttm:sourceMediaIdentifier element we reference in the spec.
   … I wonder if this is the right way to do it.
   … For example we have lots of Netflix-specific internal
   metadata like movieId, packageId, runtime, those three
   … are relevant to the source media identifier.
   … Can we extend the ebuttm metadata? Are there any restrictions
   in EBU about this?

   Andreas: I think we had this discussion in the EBU and we need
   to check on the EBU-TT Metadata spec,
   … but as far as I remember it is completely free to extend with
   non-EBU namespace attributes.

   Cyril: Is there a validator for EBU-TT documents?

   Nigel: There are XSDs.

   Cyril: Are there prohibitions on extensions?

   Andreas: Nigel and I would need to check, but for validation we
   say that foreign namespace entities are
   … pruned prior to validation.

   Cyril: The other one is I used
   ebuttm:documentOriginalProgrammeTitle, and for others I used
   … ebuttm:documentOriginalEpisodeTitle but I wondered if there
   is metadata for season number and episode number?

   Andreas: I can't remember

   Nigel: I don't think so but I'd have to check
   … I would not be surprised if the TV-Anytime spec defines
   entities for that data though.

   Cyril: OK, back to the examples.
   … We have agent with corresponding actor
   … Styling is basic
   … For every event we have...
   … A question: We have several ways to provide annotations in
   … One is a desc element with a daptm:type attribute, another is
   a daptm:eventType so it could be an
   … element or an attribute.
   … I would like to be tighter on recommendations for how people
   use these annotation mechanisms.
   … Also, we have spans that control the timing of words inside
   events - that's the concept of adapting
   … the display for speech recording.

   Nigel: This came up in the MEIG and I realised that we appear
   to say nothing about putting times on
   … spans in the spec, and I think we probably should.
   … At least I could not see it on a quick hunt.

   Cyril: OK, I think this was the issue raised by Simon from
   … Maybe it's only in an example. Yes, here in Example 10.

   Nigel: I'd like to be more explicit about that.

   Cyril: Yes, maybe.

   Nigel: I will raise that.

   Cyril: Here's a "dialog list" where the original language text
   is present.
   … Here in another example we have both original and translation
   text in the document.
   … We have inline styles that match in both languages, a word in
   italic in Korean and also the equivalent in English.

   Nigel: For ideographic languages that may not use italics for
   emphasis, do you need to identify
   … that some kind of emphasis is present on text in all the
   languages in the event?

   Cyril: I don't know, possibly.
   … Another interesting feature is text spoken by 2 characters.
   … Two values are present in the ttm:agent on the div, but the
   text is present once.
   … Here for a Japanese example I'm using itts:forcedDisplay from
   … Maybe worth mentioning in the spec.
   … The idea is that when you produce a dub you know what is not
   going to be translated and what should
   … remain as forced narrative.
   … A by-product of creating the dub is to identify the
   non-translated text.
   … Then what's really nice is when you use Pierre's imsc.js
   example renderer,
   … which has different colours and positions for different
   speakers, but you can tick the "forced narrative"
   … box and see only the forced narrative ones.
   … Any event in the DAPT script that is not meant to be voice
   recorded, but dubbed, will end up as forced narrative.
   … For example in the original show you have text on the screen
   in the original language.
   … The dubbing actor will not speak that, but the transcriber
   has identified it.
   … Anything that will not be dubbed will have to be in the
   forced narratives.
   … Is that clear?

   Nigel: I need to think about it, I think so. Interesting!

   Cyril: The last thing I want to demonstrate is audio
   … In this example, without speak and rate, just text, there's a
   "narrator" character.
   … We identify in Netflix proprietary metadata the voice, the
   engine, the vendor and the gender.
   … And the language.

   Nigel: Do you ever have an agent with a different language from
   the text?

   Cyril: Maybe a French agent would pronounce English with a
   French accent. I will check.
   … Here's an example with SSML, where there's prosody that can
   be mapped onto tta:rate but there's also
   … phoneme information on how to pronounce the word cobra, and I
   don't know how to map that to DAPT yet.
   … If I use the phoneme element, how does it work? In TTML what

   Nigel: The foreign namespace element would be pruned for

   Cyril: If we want to keep this then we would need to replace
   the SSML content with attributes or something, right?

   Nigel: Not necessarily.
   … We could define a behaviour for SSML content if we wanted
   processing of SSML namespace elements to
   … do something.
   … Or as in the ticket (#121) we could adopt an attribute-style
   … We have choice and I don't know which is right.

   Cyril: The first choice means modifying the semantics of TTML
   in the context of DAPT.
   … In imsc.js I think, the word cobra would probably not be
   … I would like to be backwards compatible with TTML renderers
   for that. I don't know, to be discussed.

   Andreas: The foreign namespace elements are pruned for
   validation but not for processing.
   … For validation, foreign namespace vocabulary is ignored.
   … For processing, everything would be in. Of course a
   presentation processor would not know what
   … to do with unknown vocabulary. Either the processor knows
   SSML and how to render it,
   … or you want TTML presentation and in that case it makes more
   sense to translate it to TTML vocabulary.

   Cyril: Let's continue the conversation in #121.
   … I ran it on several pieces of content, with no particular
   … One that I did open is #146 for signalling frame rate where
   we don't mention ttp:frameRateMultiplier.
   … I agree it can be a note not normative language.
   … The other one is #147 - the spec currently says that there
   can be multiple metadata elements.
   … Being able to identify which metadata element is the one you
   need for DAPT is useful, because otherwise
   … you have to parse everything and later ignore the ones you
   don't want.
   … I think we could have a daptm:metadataType that signals that
   the metadata contains only DAPT stuff.
   … The rest should be ignored.

   Nigel: That's interesting, I need to think about that.

   Cyril: That's it, I will keep iterating on this representation
   trying to see what needs to be put in the
   … document in terms of vocabulary from a Netflix point of view,
   what we need a standard mapping for.
   … I will try to make this code open source.

   Nigel: That's brilliant, thank you.

   Cyril: We probably already have a first implementation for the
   exit criteria.

   Nigel: And we also have a presentation implementation which
   needs bringing up to date -
   … that's the BBC's Adhere.

   [15]Adhere demo

     [15] https://bbc.github.io/Adhere/

   Cyril: It would be great if I could give it content and it
   would render it!

   Nigel: It was made originally for TTML2 and ADPT, so it ought
   to work, but I haven't tested it with DAPT
   … content yet.
   … Interested to know if it does work!

   Nigel: Thank you for that Cyril, I noted a couple of actions to
   raise issues, in the minutes.

  TPAC 2023 planning

   Nigel: From where we are, it looks clear to me that DAPT will
   be on the agenda.
   … I'm not sure in what form - maybe we will be up to having a
   … Being in Europe, there may be interested folk around.

   Pierre: The other topic that might benefit from an in-person
   meeting, maybe not best in Europe,
   … is trying to converge IMSC and ARIB-TT. Maybe that's a
   question for Atsushi.
   … Might be a little easier in an Asia-based TPAC.
   … A topic we ought to keep on our radar.

   Nigel: I agree.
   … One of my observations at the MEIG was the number of Japanese
   attendees - and Kaz also
   … wanted to talk about the SSML stuff in DAPT. There seems to
   be a bubbling interest.

   Pierre: Yes.

  Meeting close

   Nigel: Thanks everyone, we're at time. [adjourns meeting]

Summary of resolutions

    1. [16]Transition IMSC-HRM to Candidate Recommendation

    Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by
    [17]scribe.perl version 210 (Wed Jan 11 19:21:32 2023 UTC).

     [17] https://w3c.github.io/scribe2/scribedoc.html



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Received on Thursday, 8 June 2023 16:28:33 UTC