- From: Nigel Megitt <nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
- Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2023 16:28:18 +0000
- To: TTWG <public-tt@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <77AA393E-4F1B-428A-8C51-558E84935859@bbc.co.uk>
Thanks all for attending today’s TTWG meeting. Minutes can be found in HTML format at https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-tt-minutes.html
Following the Call for Consensus to transition IMSC-HRM to CR, we made one Resolution<https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-tt-minutes.html#r01>:
RESOLUTION: Transition IMSC-HRM to Candidate Recommendation
Since this follows the conclusion of the call for consensus period then, as per our decision policy, there is no further review period.
In text format:
[1]W3C
[1] https://www.w3.org/
Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
08 June 2023
[2]Previous meeting. [3]Agenda. [4]IRC log.
[2] https://www.w3.org/2023/05/25-tt-minutes.html
[3] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/253
[4] https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-tt-irc
Attendees
Present
Andreas, Cyril, Nigel, Pierre
Regrets
Atsushi, Gary
Chair
Nigel
Scribe
nigel
Contents
1. [5]This meeting, plus Chair news
2. [6]IMSC-HRM
3. [7]DAPT
1. [8]Netflix TTAL <⟶ DAPT round tripping
4. [9]TPAC 2023 planning
5. [10]Meeting close
6. [11]Summary of resolutions
Meeting minutes
This meeting, plus Chair news
Nigel: Gary sent his regrets for today - he's actually no
longer at Mux, and is having to step
… away from W3C work for the time being, so the de facto status
is we have one Chair at this moment.
… Agenda for today:
… IMSC-HRM
… DAPT, including a demo from Cyril
… also still on the agenda I retained the fontVariant
discussion topic, and TPAC planning, in case we want to cover
those
… Is there any other business?
no other business
IMSC-HRM
Nigel: Looking at the responses to the CfC to transition to CR,
… I see 2 approvals, 0 objections, so I declare we have
consensus.
… The Pull request at [12]w3c/imsc-hrm#59 has 2 positive
reviews, no requests for change.
… (different reviewers than those who responded to the CfC)
[12] https://github.com/w3c/imsc-hrm/pull/59
RESOLUTION: Transition IMSC-HRM to Candidate Recommendation
Nigel: We now need Atsushi's help to make that happen, I think.
… Is there anything else to say on this, aside from thank you
to everyone for your input on this?
Pierre: Thank you Nigel, on my todo list is creating the tests
and a draft call for content that we should send around.
Nigel: Sounds good
Pierre: I can have that done for the next meeting.
… Do you have any specific input?
Nigel: I don't, right now, I'll review though!
Pierre: Of course! But anything else a priori?
Nigel: I'd just be calling for content and/or implementations.
Pierre: Of course, yes.
… We should probably do a more generic call and then a specific
focused call to media companies who may not have
implementations.
Nigel: We need to demonstrate implementation so we should be
clear that their responses can be held private,
… and that we are interested to know the tools used to create
the content.
Pierre: They're only interested in the content they generate.
We shouldn't over complicate this.
Nigel: If it turns out they have common authoring tools we
would want to know that.
Pierre: I would not make that compulsory because it would put
them off.
… If we make it hard for non-technical people to respond then
they will not respond.
… If we need to go to vendors and figure out what was used, we
aren't going to bother.
… It will be hard enough to get content, without the actual
workflow as well.
Andreas: If it is not really needed for exit criteria then I
would say it is voluntary information.
… If there are 2-3 authoring tools that should be sufficient
for complying with the exit criteria.
Nigel: That's why I'm making this point: I think it is
necessary for the exit criteria
… We should allow people to provide content for our inspection.
… The alternative is to ask providers to give us the results of
running the HRM on their content, they
… don't have to show us the content at all.
Andreas: Re the authoring tools, if you ask for content you
could just say that we are happy to receive
… information about the authoring tool if it is available. I
don't think you would go a second time to ask them again.
… If providers have a single chain, common in Germany, and they
have the information, then they can provide it.
Nigel: checking our exit criteria, I agree, since we only need
>=1 content implementation + >1 validating implementation,
… or >=2 validating implementations, we don't actually need
multiple content implementations, minimally.
… It would be nice to have.
… I think we're in agreement now, we just need to know there's
at least 1 authoring tool out there.
Pierre: Yes.
Nigel: Any more?
Pierre: No, thanks for the discussion.
Nigel: This is why we're here!
DAPT
Nigel: I presented DAPT work to the MEIG on Tuesday
[13]MEIG minutes 2023-06-06
[13] https://www.w3.org/2023/06/06-me-minutes.html
Nigel: It was useful I think.
… I also will be presenting it to the EBU Access Services
Experts plenary on Friday next week.
[14]Slides for next week's presentation
[14] https://bbc.github.io/accessibility-presentations/nigel_megitt_ebu_access_services_2023/index.html
Nigel: I'm regarding this as part of the Wide Review invitation
work.
… But I still have on my to do list requesting HR and WR from
liaisons and others.
… We still have CR must-have issues open.
Cyril: I was reading the minutes from the MEIG meeting. Kaz
asked about the ordering of words in Japanese
… translations - he asked how to deal with word order
difference. Did you answer that?
Nigel: Yes, I did.
Cyril: His point is about the structure of the language. I can
show you an example.
Netflix TTAL <⟶ DAPT round tripping
Cyril: [shares screen]
… As you know Netflix has been working on the TTAL language and
is standardising it,
… and the idea is to demonstrate that lossless roundtripping
with DAPT can be done.
… The code I wrote is not yet open source, I'm thinking about
open sourcing it.
… It would help e.g. a tool vendor that supports TTAL already
to use as a front-end to convert XML to JSON
… with low effort.
… Similarly if they produce JSON they could use JSON → XML
conversion to deliver the standard XML to
… streaming services like Netflix.
… I can show you some inputs I have been using.
… [shows a TTAL JSON extract from a movie]
… Lots of proprietary information
… You can see frame based start and end timing, annotations
etc.
… in XML [shows an equivalent DAPT XML document]
… metadata, styling, layout and events
… begin, paragraphs that contain text, with daptm attributes,
here showing the original language.
… This is work in progress.
… There's some Netflix proprietary information in nttm
namespace, Netflix's own.
… I'm looking to see if anything needs to be mapped to daptm
that is not yet mapped.
… One of them is the original language - we carry that even if
there's no event in that language.
… [shows another example of DAPT for a different movie]
… This is Japanese, translation, but it doesn't say the
original language anywhere.
… That may be an extension to consider. I will file an issue.
… I had no particular issue converting TTAL JSON to DAPT and
back.
… Small details maybe.
… For example, looking at metadata, I used the
ebuttm:sourceMediaIdentifier element we reference in the spec.
… I wonder if this is the right way to do it.
… For example we have lots of Netflix-specific internal
metadata like movieId, packageId, runtime, those three
… are relevant to the source media identifier.
… Can we extend the ebuttm metadata? Are there any restrictions
in EBU about this?
Andreas: I think we had this discussion in the EBU and we need
to check on the EBU-TT Metadata spec,
… but as far as I remember it is completely free to extend with
non-EBU namespace attributes.
Cyril: Is there a validator for EBU-TT documents?
Nigel: There are XSDs.
Cyril: Are there prohibitions on extensions?
Andreas: Nigel and I would need to check, but for validation we
say that foreign namespace entities are
… pruned prior to validation.
Cyril: The other one is I used
ebuttm:documentOriginalProgrammeTitle, and for others I used
the
… ebuttm:documentOriginalEpisodeTitle but I wondered if there
is metadata for season number and episode number?
Andreas: I can't remember
Nigel: I don't think so but I'd have to check
… I would not be surprised if the TV-Anytime spec defines
entities for that data though.
Cyril: OK, back to the examples.
… We have agent with corresponding actor
… Styling is basic
… For every event we have...
… A question: We have several ways to provide annotations in
DAPT.
… One is a desc element with a daptm:type attribute, another is
a daptm:eventType so it could be an
… element or an attribute.
… I would like to be tighter on recommendations for how people
use these annotation mechanisms.
… Also, we have spans that control the timing of words inside
events - that's the concept of adapting
… the display for speech recording.
Nigel: This came up in the MEIG and I realised that we appear
to say nothing about putting times on
… spans in the spec, and I think we probably should.
… At least I could not see it on a quick hunt.
Cyril: OK, I think this was the issue raised by Simon from
YellaUmbrella.
… Maybe it's only in an example. Yes, here in Example 10.
Nigel: I'd like to be more explicit about that.
Cyril: Yes, maybe.
Nigel: I will raise that.
Cyril: Here's a "dialog list" where the original language text
is present.
… Here in another example we have both original and translation
text in the document.
… We have inline styles that match in both languages, a word in
italic in Korean and also the equivalent in English.
Nigel: For ideographic languages that may not use italics for
emphasis, do you need to identify
… that some kind of emphasis is present on text in all the
languages in the event?
Cyril: I don't know, possibly.
… Another interesting feature is text spoken by 2 characters.
… Two values are present in the ttm:agent on the div, but the
text is present once.
… Here for a Japanese example I'm using itts:forcedDisplay from
IMSC.
… Maybe worth mentioning in the spec.
… The idea is that when you produce a dub you know what is not
going to be translated and what should
… remain as forced narrative.
… A by-product of creating the dub is to identify the
non-translated text.
… Then what's really nice is when you use Pierre's imsc.js
example renderer,
… which has different colours and positions for different
speakers, but you can tick the "forced narrative"
… box and see only the forced narrative ones.
… Any event in the DAPT script that is not meant to be voice
recorded, but dubbed, will end up as forced narrative.
… For example in the original show you have text on the screen
in the original language.
… The dubbing actor will not speak that, but the transcriber
has identified it.
… Anything that will not be dubbed will have to be in the
forced narratives.
… Is that clear?
Nigel: I need to think about it, I think so. Interesting!
Cyril: The last thing I want to demonstrate is audio
description.
… In this example, without speak and rate, just text, there's a
"narrator" character.
… We identify in Netflix proprietary metadata the voice, the
engine, the vendor and the gender.
… And the language.
Nigel: Do you ever have an agent with a different language from
the text?
Cyril: Maybe a French agent would pronounce English with a
French accent. I will check.
… Here's an example with SSML, where there's prosody that can
be mapped onto tta:rate but there's also
… phoneme information on how to pronounce the word cobra, and I
don't know how to map that to DAPT yet.
… If I use the phoneme element, how does it work? In TTML what
happens?
Nigel: The foreign namespace element would be pruned for
validation.
Cyril: If we want to keep this then we would need to replace
the SSML content with attributes or something, right?
Nigel: Not necessarily.
… We could define a behaviour for SSML content if we wanted
processing of SSML namespace elements to
… do something.
… Or as in the ticket (#121) we could adopt an attribute-style
approach.
… We have choice and I don't know which is right.
Cyril: The first choice means modifying the semantics of TTML
in the context of DAPT.
… In imsc.js I think, the word cobra would probably not be
rendered.
… I would like to be backwards compatible with TTML renderers
for that. I don't know, to be discussed.
Andreas: The foreign namespace elements are pruned for
validation but not for processing.
… For validation, foreign namespace vocabulary is ignored.
… For processing, everything would be in. Of course a
presentation processor would not know what
… to do with unknown vocabulary. Either the processor knows
SSML and how to render it,
… or you want TTML presentation and in that case it makes more
sense to translate it to TTML vocabulary.
Cyril: Let's continue the conversation in #121.
… I ran it on several pieces of content, with no particular
issues.
… One that I did open is #146 for signalling frame rate where
we don't mention ttp:frameRateMultiplier.
… I agree it can be a note not normative language.
… The other one is #147 - the spec currently says that there
can be multiple metadata elements.
… Being able to identify which metadata element is the one you
need for DAPT is useful, because otherwise
… you have to parse everything and later ignore the ones you
don't want.
… I think we could have a daptm:metadataType that signals that
the metadata contains only DAPT stuff.
… The rest should be ignored.
Nigel: That's interesting, I need to think about that.
Cyril: That's it, I will keep iterating on this representation
trying to see what needs to be put in the
… document in terms of vocabulary from a Netflix point of view,
what we need a standard mapping for.
… I will try to make this code open source.
Nigel: That's brilliant, thank you.
Cyril: We probably already have a first implementation for the
exit criteria.
Nigel: And we also have a presentation implementation which
needs bringing up to date -
… that's the BBC's Adhere.
[15]Adhere demo
[15] https://bbc.github.io/Adhere/
Cyril: It would be great if I could give it content and it
would render it!
Nigel: It was made originally for TTML2 and ADPT, so it ought
to work, but I haven't tested it with DAPT
… content yet.
… Interested to know if it does work!
Nigel: Thank you for that Cyril, I noted a couple of actions to
raise issues, in the minutes.
TPAC 2023 planning
Nigel: From where we are, it looks clear to me that DAPT will
be on the agenda.
… I'm not sure in what form - maybe we will be up to having a
plug-fest?
… Being in Europe, there may be interested folk around.
Pierre: The other topic that might benefit from an in-person
meeting, maybe not best in Europe,
… is trying to converge IMSC and ARIB-TT. Maybe that's a
question for Atsushi.
… Might be a little easier in an Asia-based TPAC.
… A topic we ought to keep on our radar.
Nigel: I agree.
… One of my observations at the MEIG was the number of Japanese
attendees - and Kaz also
… wanted to talk about the SSML stuff in DAPT. There seems to
be a bubbling interest.
Pierre: Yes.
Meeting close
Nigel: Thanks everyone, we're at time. [adjourns meeting]
Summary of resolutions
1. [16]Transition IMSC-HRM to Candidate Recommendation
Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by
[17]scribe.perl version 210 (Wed Jan 11 19:21:32 2023 UTC).
[17] https://w3c.github.io/scribe2/scribedoc.html
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Received on Thursday, 8 June 2023 16:28:33 UTC