{Minutes} TTWG Teleconference 2023-04-13

Thanks all for attending today’s TTWG meeting. Minutes can be found in HTML format at https://www.w3.org/2023/04/13-tt-minutes.html


In text format:

   [1]W3C

      [1] https://www.w3.org/


                Timed Text Working Group Teleconference

13 April 2023

   [2]Previous meeting. [3]Agenda. [4]IRC log.

      [2] https://www.w3.org/2023/03/30-tt-minutes.html

      [3] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/248

      [4] https://www.w3.org/2023/04/13-tt-irc


Attendees

   Present
          Andreas, Atsushi, Chris, Cyril, Gary, Nigel, Pierre

   Regrets
          -

   Chair
          Gary, Nigel

   Scribe
          cpn, cyril, nigel

Contents

    1. [5]This meeting
    2. [6]Charter
    3. [7]DAPT
    4. [8]IMSC HRM
    5. [9]WebVTT metadata format, issue 512
    6. [10]TPAC 2023
    7. [11]Meeting close

Meeting minutes

  This meeting

   Nigel: Today, I think we have:
   … Charter status
   … DAPT
   … IMSC-HRM
   … TPAC 2023
   … Anything else, or points to make sure we cover?

   cpn: there is also the WebVTT issue 512

   gkatsev: we can but I don't have anything on it

   nigel: ok, any AOB?

  Charter

   nigel: we have only good news
   … we have a new Charter
   … thanks everybody for sorting this out

   <nigel> [12]New TTWG Charter

     [12] https://www.w3.org/2023/04/timed-text-wg-charter.html


   nigel: it ends on 7th of April 2025, we have 2 years
   … I just had a question about invited experts
   … in the past some people needed to rejoin
   … on this call, it concerns only Andreas

   atai: not received any notification, yet

   gkatsev: worth checking your status

   atsushi: this time no one needs to rejoin, because no new
   deliverables were added
   … nothing changes for invited experts

   nigel: questions? comments?

  DAPT

   nigel: there are PRs but i haven't had a chance to look at them
   all

   cyril: not sure we need to do them all for FPWD

   atsushi: once we publish to /TR, we can streamline publication
   … but first we need to go to FPWD

   cyril: last time, we did a CfC

   nigel: there was a resolution, publish based on editor's draft.
   I didn't hear any objections, so I declare that a WG decision
   … next step is to request FPWD based on the current editor's
   draft, then set up the automatic streamlined publication

   atsushi: please record the group decision in the minutes

   nigel: do you need a separate statement on streamlined
   publication?

   atsushi: i believe not

   nigel: ok. cyril, anything more we need to discuss?

   cyril: there are open issues and PRs, we can discuss offline

   nigel: there's a discussion about prohibiting frame components
   that look like SMPTE time codes, there's a PR for that
   … other things are editorial for consistency. One other, I've
   not reviewed yet, is Andreas's feedback on splitting AD from
   dubbing in the script type

   cyril: I was waiting for your feedback. We have 4 script types:
   original and translated transcript, pre-recording and
   as-recorded
   … I tried for each to say if it's applicable when it's dubbing
   and AD. We need to review that, not sure which we want to use
   for AD

   nigel: I think any are fine for any application type

   cyril: So please suggest changes on the PR, as I currently
   excluded the first two
   … we should make it clear how to use them for AD

   nigel: AD can include translation of text burned in the image,
   e.g., a newspaper headline in the image, and someone wants to
   hear the description in their own language
   … so translated AD is a thing

   cyril: that would be great to have as an example

   nigel: I'll look at it and propose something

   andreas: I support what cyril said, having examples for types
   originally designed for dubbing that now apply to AD

   atsushi: it seems I need to file at least one editorial fix, so
   will make PR early next week
   … There are some respec and cosmetic errors in the latest draft

   nigel: I don't think there's a respec error?

   atsushi: I saw something yesterday, let me check later

   cyril: please do

   nigel: The pr-preview can't resolve some respec dependencies on
   included files, so that can give the appearance of errors

   cyril: we could talk about issue #124. Andreas raised this
   about how we use styles for characters
   … I suggested a way forward, it could mean some changes to the
   working draft

   nigel: I'll have a look offline. The cardinality point that
   Andreas mentioned is interesting

   nigel: Anything else on DAPT?

   cyril: no, it's good for me

  IMSC HRM

   nigel: The TAG seem to keep pushing back the review, maybe I
   should contact them to progress it
   … I think we need that to do CR
   … Pierre, now we have the charter, and we did some work to
   align with the charter, can we look at PR 59?

  pierre: I'll look at that later today

   nigel: Anything else on IMSC HRM?

   pierre: i need to merge the PR, make sure the tooling is happy
   … we should re-read it in light of the updated charter
   … and take into account any TAG feedback
   … in case anything is at-risk

   nigel: The image HRM checking?

   pierre: correct
   … Some people do use image profiles, which seems surprising

  WebVTT metadata format, issue 512

   github: [13]w3c/webvtt#512

     [13] https://github.com/w3c/webvtt/issues/512


   Nigel: There was some more discussion on this issue after last
   meeting

   Gary: We should invite those folk to one of our meetings

   Chris: This digressed into a discussion about DataCue which is
   perhaps not for this group.
   … It feels like it's with me to do anything with it if we're
   going to do anything.
   … Nobody is really pushing for it.
   … So unless there's more active demand I'm not inclined to
   spend much more work on it.

   Andreas: There was one requestor with the VMT use case for
   DataCue, to enable the geographical
   … use case or service.

   Chris: Yes, there's that. Perhaps I should propose another WICG
   meeting on this to think about next steps.
   … This is a separate discussion. If there is particular
   interest from members here then I'd be interested
   … to hear that. I'm happy to progress it if there is demand.

   nigel: There's a text track CG, I think, and some months ago
   Sylvia asked how it's going
   … So that got me thinking. It struck me that the current state
   of how text tracks work on the web has a bunch of problems
   … and it's not used in some communities. I have the impression
   that the core problem that's well solved is triggering things
   on the media timeline
   … But VTTCue has extra baggage, but that suggests to me we
   should preserve that functionality. So that makes it feel like
   some kind of cut-down TextTrackCue type can be useful,
   … and saving some resource in clients. Not sure whether that's
   useful. But it seems overloaded

   chris: sometimes browser vendors argue that having a workaround
   is enough and it doesn't motivate adding a new feature

   gary: sometimes it's argued that things don't meet needs with
   respect to regulation, hence there's no need
   … I don't like that everything that gets pushed out to
   JavaScript, especially when there are features in the browser
   that are crucial for accessibility
   … they don't work on new features as there's no usage, but
   there's no usage because they don't meet requirements to meet
   regulations

   chris: happy to bring all that to WICG DataCue or MEIG?

   nigel: I think the whole model of how captions are supposed to
   work, and other timed features needs to be reopened
   … so we should work out what the unmet needs are
   … that doesn't feel like a TTWG thing, MEIG first

   chris: Happy to facilitate

   andreas: I support Gary's point. It's hard to understand how
   much effort browser vendors spend on captions and text track
   API to enable it
   … but it's not adequate. It's a topic for this group, there are
   two major formats for captions that use the TextTrack API

   gary: I think this group should be involved in the discussion,
   but this might not be the home. TextTrack is in HTML, DataCue
   is in WICG, VTTCue is in TTWG
   … Is what we have in the specs sufficient for the needs, and if
   so we need to start encouraging browser vendors to fix issues
   and fully implement
   … If not, figure out the gaps and get to a place where not
   every streaming service needs to implement full captioning
   support in their clients, because the support in clients is
   insufficient

   nigel: in terms of this group, I agree, formats live here, but
   I think there's a more architctural issue

   chris: what do you suggest as a next step?

   nigel: need some kind of workshop, to understand the current
   model and what works well
   … a format where we can discuss openly, e.g., why particular
   services use the approaches they do and what doesn't meet needs

   gary: TPAC would be a good place to have something like this.
   But ideally we'd also get started on it before September

   chris: so we could discuss offline about how to plan something
   and who to involve?

   group: [discusses freely, off the record]

   SUMMARY: This issue isn't the right place to discuss, but it
   highlights that there are wider issues around text tracks that
   need to be understood and resolved. Probably something for MEIG
   initially.

   <Zakim> cpn, you wanted to discuss the final agenda item

  TPAC 2023

   Nigel: We've been reminded that we need to fill in a survey
   … Also there's now a TPAC website

   [14]TPAC 2023 website

     [14] https://www.w3.org/2023/09/TPAC/


   cpn: We need to identify joint meetings too, e.g. with Media WG
   and MEIG

   Nigel: I propose that we loosely target TPAC 2023 for
   discussions about the wider caption and text track
   … architecture, and meet jointly with Media WG and MEIG for
   that.

   Gary: We should consider segmented captions and MSE in that
   too.

   Nigel: Makes sense
   … Would you be able to take on that survey?

   Gary: Yes I can do that.

   Nigel: Thank you.

  Meeting close

   Nigel: We're a little over time. Thank you everyone, see you in
   2 weeks. [adjourns meeting]


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