{Minutes} TTWG Meeting 2022-03-17

Thanks all for attending today’s TTWG meeting. Minutes can be found in HTML format at https://www.w3.org/2022/03/17-tt-minutes.html


Please note that we made 2 Resolutions to which the group’s Decision Policy applies, giving 2 weeks for review:

RESOLUTION: Publish the Draft Note of DAPT requirements on /TR as a WG Note after issue #4 has been resolved
RESOLUTION: On merging pull requests to the main branch of the repo, trigger automatic publication of a WG Note as an update.

These both apply to the DAPT Requirements Note at https://w3c.github.io/dapt-reqs/ .

If you have any comments or objections on these resolutions please respond by 31st March; if there are no outstanding objections at the end of that period then they will be considered WG Decisions.

Those minutes in text format:

   [1]W3C

      [1] https://www.w3.org/


                Timed Text Working Group Teleconference

17 March 2022

   [2]Previous meeting. [3]Agenda. [4]IRC log.

      [2] https://www.w3.org/2022/03/03-tt-minutes.html

      [3] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/212

      [4] https://www.w3.org/2022/03/17-tt-irc


Attendees

   Present
          Andreas, atsushi, Cyril, Gary, Nigel

   Regrets
          Pierre

   Chair
          Gary, Nigel

   Scribe
          nigel

Contents

    1. [5]This meeting
    2. [6]Rechartering
    3. [7]TPAC
    4. [8]IMSC HRM
    5. [9]DAPT REQs
    6. [10]Behavior with controls, particularly non-native
       controls, overlap w3c/webvtt#503
    7. [11]Meeting close
    8. [12]Summary of resolutions

Meeting minutes

  This meeting

   Atsushi: Can we cover the Charter and TPAC topics first?

   Nigel: [iterates through meeting agenda]
   … Any other business?

  Rechartering

   Atsushi: AC review for the Charter is open until next
   Wednesday.
   … All the AC reps for today's attendees have responded.
   … But some TTWG participants' AC reps have not yet responded,
   so I'm reminding them
   … via the minutes.

   Nigel: Noted, thank you.
   … I think the situation re support and objections is the same
   as last week for objections (1),
   … and more support.

   Atsushi: Yes

   Gary: How does the formal objection affect chartering process?

   Atsushi: On the part we wrote about implementation
   requirements.
   … There is one request to change for two independent
   implementations.

   Gary: Can we proceed with that or do we need to resolve the
   objection before we can proceed?

   Atsushi: We need to resolve the FO before we proceed. I believe
   we have no response from the AC rep though.

   Nigel: That's correct, no response yet.
   … I will send a reminder.
   … It is not clear _how_ we will resolve the objection!

   Gary: Yes, that's the difficult part. From a process point of
   view, it's easy!

  TPAC

   Atsushi: We really need to respond about the TPAC questions -
   on-site/off-site/hybrid.
   … It's a reminder for Chairs to respond to the WBS.

   Nigel: Almost everyone has not responded to the email question
   I sent out.

   Gary: I'm probably not going to travel for it.

   Nigel: OK I will extrapolate from me, Andreas and Gary and send
   a response, albeit an inaccurate one!
   … I think that will have to do.
   … What's the response date?

   Gary: March 28th

   Andreas: Pierre had some comments last time, which can be taken
   into account.

   Nigel: I didn't know how to process his comments in terms of a
   survey response.

   Gary: He said it was too soon to decide, which is why I gave my
   response.

   Andreas: Yes, if I had to decide now I would say no.

   Nigel: Nobody is being asked to decide now.

   Cyril: In my case, I could travel. I went to a conference 2
   weeks ago, it was good!
   … It's a lot of ifs, but if there is an agenda, and nothing
   changes, I would be able to go.

   Nigel: That's my position as well.
   … OK we have a mix, which I can use. Thanks everyone!

   Atsushi: Not for me but for the Chairs to decide if we need an
   offline venue and if so, how large.
   … For me, I suppose it will be difficult to travel from Japan
   even in September.
   … So for now I should say regrets for on-site, but I could join
   somehow remotely.

   Nigel: OK, thank you.
   … I think that's almost everybody.
   … Gary, either of us can do this, do you have a preference?

   Gary: I'm happy to take it on.

   Nigel: Thank you!

  IMSC HRM

   Nigel: In Pierre's absence, quick update.
   … We've merged most of the open pull requests.
  … There's one more where Pierre and I have been going round the
   loop on introductory text.
   … Please take a look at [13]https://github.com/w3c/imsc-hrm/
   pull/43 otherwise
   … I think we're nearly there so it may get merged very soon.
   … There is one open HR issue which we tried to resolve, but was
   reopened.
   … I think that's a misunderstanding and am hoping that the
   Privacy & Security reviewer who raised the issue
   … will agree, after further thought.
   … I think we should consider renaming the defined term "glyph"
   which doesn't carry it's usual meaning,
   … in the HRM. I think this is a cause of technical
   misunderstandings that we can mitigate.
   … Aside from all that, when we've merged all these PRs the plan
   is as discussed for me to send Wide Review comms.
   … If anyone has any suggestions for alternative names for
   glyph, please let us know.

     [13] https://github.com/w3c/imsc-hrm/pull/43


  Gary: Should we also add a note that the font does not need to
   be loaded?

   Nigel: Yes, I think PR #43 adds text that explicitly says that
   no external resources need to be loaded.

   Gary: Perfect.

   Nigel: Any more on IMSC HRM?

   [nothing more]

  DAPT REQs

   Nigel: As promised Cyril and I have completed a first ED of the
   WG Note for the requirements for DAPT.

   [14]Draft ED Note for DAPT REQs

     [14] https://w3c.github.io/dapt-reqs/


   Nigel: I was wondering if we could and should adopt the same
   working mode as for IMSC-HRM where
   … a PR merge to the default branch triggers publication on /TR

   Cyril: Yes that'd be great

   Gary: Ship it!

   Nigel: Atsushi, can we do that?

   Atsushi: I have not studied yet about publication rules for WG
   Notes so let me check the document about draft note.
   … DNOE. I believe it is easier than pubishing FPWD but I'm not
   sure what we need.

   Nigel: We can make a proposal and resolution.

   Atsushi: I believe we do need that, but I need to check the
   Process document for what to do next.
   … In any case I propose to ask for consensus here.

   Nigel: Yes, let's do 2 proposals.

   PROPOSAL: Publish the Draft Note of DAPT requirements on /TR as
   a WG Note

   <atsushi> [15]DNOTE / draft note

     [15] https://www.w3.org/2021/Process-20211102/#draft-note


   PROPOSAL: On merging pull requests to the main branch of the
   repo, trigger automatic publication of a WG Note as an update.

   Nigel: Any questions or comments on those proposals?

   Andreas: The first proposal is to publish the draft as a WG
   Note as it is now?

   Nigel: Yes

   Cyril: As an Editor's Draft?

   Andreas: And the second one is for automatic republishing?
   … I raised an issue about accessibility, which we should
   consider before publication.

   Nigel: I didn't see that yet.

   Andreas: The image should have an accessible equivalent for
   screen readers, and the table has some problems.

   Cyril: The screen reader says the names of the layer and shape
   when you hover over.

   Nigel: That doesn't sound good - it may need an aria label.

   Cyril: I didn't realise it is clickable.

   Nigel: Yes it takes you to the spec text about it.

   Cyril: Oh wow. We should add a note about that.
   … We should open issues about the Editor's Note so we can
   reference them. I can do that now?

   Nigel: Yes please go ahead.

   Cyril: We should address those but I don't see them as blockers
   to publication.

   Nigel: Andreas, I don't know why the table isn't accessible, I
   just used standard Respec.
   … If you can add more detail it would be helpful.

   Andreas: Maybe you can try it and see if it says what you
   expect. I don't know if an "X" is meaningful.
   … It would be good to fix that before publication.

   Nigel: Okay, Andreas, you would like to see this fixed before
   publication.

   Andreas: If we publish this and advertise it, I think it should
   be fixed before.

   Nigel: I will amend the proposal

   PROPOSAL: Publish the Draft Note of DAPT requirements on /TR as
   a WG Note after issue #4 has been resolved

   Nigel: I think this amended proposal will not make any
   difference to timelines because our 2 week decision review
   policy
   … should give enough time - oh actually, the pull request needs
   its own 2 weeks, so maybe that's not quite right.
   … Anyway, I agree we should resolve that.

   Atsushi: We may be able to do these in parallel.

   Nigel: Yes, we should. I may be able to open a pull request for
   this tomorrow morning.

   Atsushi: It's up to you.

   Nigel: Okay, any more on the proposals?
   … Any objections?

   No objections

   RESOLUTION: Publish the Draft Note of DAPT requirements on /TR
   as a WG Note after issue #4 has been resolved

   RESOLUTION: On merging pull requests to the main branch of the
   repo, trigger automatic publication of a WG Note as an update.

   Nigel: Thank you.
   … Obviously please do raise issues as normal if you would like
   any changes to the document.
   … Thank you Andreas for raising those issues.

   Cyril: What does it mean for writing a specification against
   the requirements?
   … Can we start working on an ED for a FPWD?

   Nigel: Yes I don't see why not.
   … We must also validate these requirements.
   … Obviously any changes to the requirements might have impacts
   on the specification.

   Cyril: I will start working on an Editor's draft, which we can
   finalise later.

   Nigel: Great, thank you.
   … I think I should write a Chair's blog post about the
   requirements document to try to get as much review input as
   possible.
   … I've already shared it with some contacts, and would
   encourage everyone else to as well.

  Behavior with controls, particularly non-native controls, overlap
  w3c/webvtt#503

   Gary: I don't think we will completely cover this today but I
   think that's fine. It's a big topic.
   … Background: the question arises from when there are captions
   at the bottom of the display area. What happens
   … when the user interacts with the video player and the
   controls are shown.
   … The controls can obscure the captions, which can be
   problematic from an accessibility standpoint,
   … for those that depend on the captions.

   github: [16]https://github.com/w3c/webvtt/issues/503


     [16] https://github.com/w3c/webvtt/issues/503


   Gary: WebVTT right now with native controls has a mechanism to
   say that the captions should rerender to account for the native
   … control bar.
   … But then how do you handle this with a non-native control
   bar?
   … Also the behaviour potentially has bugs because it can cause
   cues to reorder,
   … which could be confusing to the user.

   Nigel: The bug part needs to be fixed, because displaying lines
   out of order can't be right.

   Gary: I think it is to spec as written now.
   … It's an issue if you have 2 cues, one for each line, instead
   of a 2 line cue.
   … If only the second line gets obscured but the first can be
   positioned normally, then the second one gets moved and ends up
   above the first one.

   Nigel: That's 2 cues rather than 1 cue with a line break in it?

   Gary: it's 2 cues with each line in a separate cue rather than
   1 cue with a break in it.

   Andreas: I second that this is an important issue.
   … I encountered it with subtitles for audio only, and in some
   browsers the control bar never disappears.
   … Then the WebVTT cues can be permanently obscured by the
   control bar.
   … I did not investigate if that is spec conformant.

   Gary: With an audio element?

   Andreas: With a video element pointing to audio content.

   Gary: Interesting that the controls are always visible.

   Andreas: The question on the solution part is if it is for the
   HTML spec or for the WebVTT spec?

   Gary: I'd argue for both because there's the reordering
   behaviour and also can you represent non-native controls
   … so that the captions don't overlap - that may be for the HTML
   spec.

   Cyril: I don't know if this is true for all players, but some
   of the Netflix players reduce the size of the viewport when
   controls appear.

   Gary: You shrink the text area?

   Cyril: Yes, it temporarily squishes until the controls
   disappear.
   … This makes the text move.

   Nigel: Some BBC players do the same thing as what Cyril said,
   but...
   … our newer UX design puts the controls in the vertical centre,
   so that doesn't work any more!
   … Some time ago I suggested an API for saying where not to put
   captions.
   … This is a real problem - it's not just controls, it can be
   other overlays too.

   <atsushi> +1 on issue ;)

   SUMMARY: Issue discussed and recognised, applies to all caption
   formats.

  Meeting close

   Nigel: Thanks everyone. Next time we meet the UTC time will be
   different, and the meeting will
   … be at the usual local time for all regular participants
   except Atsushi, for whom it will be 1 hour earlier.

   Atsushi: I heard that the US will not have DST from next year.

   Gary: Yes the Senate passed it but it still has to go through
   the House and the President.

   Nigel: OK, thank you. [adjourns meeting]

Summary of resolutions

    1. [17]Publish the Draft Note of DAPT requirements on /TR as a
       WG Note after issue #4 has been resolved
    2. [18]On merging pull requests to the main branch of the
       repo, trigger automatic publication of a WG Note as an
       update.


    Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by
    [19]scribe.perl version 185 (Thu Dec 2 18:51:55 2021 UTC).

     [19] https://w3c.github.io/scribe2/scribedoc.html

Received on Thursday, 17 March 2022 18:24:38 UTC