{Minutes} TTWG Meeting 2022-08-18

Thanks all for attending today’s TTWG teleconference. Minutes can be found in HTML format at https://www.w3.org/2022/08/18-tt-minutes.html


In text format:

   [1]W3C

      [1] https://www.w3.org/


                Timed Text Working Group Teleconference

18 August 2022

   [2]Previous meeting. [3]Agenda. [4]IRC log.

      [2] https://www.w3.org/2022/07/21-tt-minutes.html

      [3] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/224

      [4] https://www.w3.org/2022/08/18-tt-irc


Attendees

   Present
          Andreas, Atsushi, Chris_Needham, Cyril, Gary, Hew,
          Nigel, Pierre

   Regrets
          -

   Chair
          Gary, Nigel

   Scribe
          nigel

Contents

    1. [5]This meeting
    2. [6]Our TPAC agenda, plus joint meetings
    3. [7]Rechartering status update
    4. [8]AOB - IMSC HRM
    5. [9]Meeting close

Meeting minutes

  This meeting

   Nigel: Today is our last opportunity to settle our TPAC agenda,
   because we have a form to fill in.

   Gary: Yes, we need the agenda by the end of the month, and they
   need to set up the group meetings.

   Nigel: That's our main agenda topic.
   … Then on the agenda today we have DAPT, Rechartering status
   update.
   … Is there any other business?

   No other business

  Our TPAC agenda, plus joint meetings

   Nigel: First thing, anyone attending in person, check the TPAC
   health requirements.
   … There's no choice about doing them - we just do them!

   <cyril> [10]https://www.w3.org/2022/09/TPAC/health.html


     [10] https://www.w3.org/2022/09/TPAC/health.html


   [11]TPAC Health requirements

     [11] https://www.w3.org/2022/09/TPAC/health.html


   nigel: Thursday 15th:
   … * 8:00-10:00 MEIG meeting with joint meeting 09:15-10:00
   joint meeting
   … * 10:00-10:30 Break
   … * 10:30-12:30 TTWG meeting
   …
   … Friday 16th:
   … * 08:00-13:00 TTWG meeting with joint section with Media WG
   12:00-13:00
   …
   …
   … All Vancouver time. Is that okay with everyone?

   Cyril: Is the Media WG meeting on the same day as us?

   Chris: Friday afternoon from 14:00

   [12]TPAC 2022 Group meeting schedule

     [12] https://www.w3.org/calendar/tpac2022/group-meetings/


   Chris: There's a Thursday afternoon joint meeting Media WG and
   WebRTC

   Cyril: And breakout sessions are on the Wednesday?

   Chris: Yes
   … All the media stuff was pushed to the end of the week in case
   any folk want to be at IBC first as well.

   Cyril: I have a question regarding the health protocol.
   … My reading of TPAC is that the only constraints on
   participants are to wear a mask at all times
   … and do a test every morning.
   … But there's no rule on what to do outside the meeting.
   … If I want to go for dinner in an evening without a mask can I
   do that?

   Chris: My understanding is there's no rule against that.

   Nigel: +1

   Cyril: Thank you.
   … Another question, I don't know if you have the answer, don't
   give private answers.
   … Does anyone in this group have any particular health risks?

   Nigel: Nobody has approached me about that.

   Gary: Me neither. Unfortunately I think anyone who does
   probably will not attend in person.

   Nigel: Atsushi, did anyone approach you with any health
   concerns?

   Atsushi: I haven't had any discussions with anyone.

   <atsushi> [13]https://www.w3.org/2022/09/TPAC/

   Overview.html#helpdesk

     [13] https://www.w3.org/2022/09/TPAC/Overview.html#helpdesk


   Atsushi: I believe we can contact the health desk at any time
   for extra restrictions.

   Nigel: Okay, let's leave it there.

   <cpn_> Discussion of health rules is here: [14]https://
   github.com/w3c/TPAC2022-Health-rules

     [14] https://github.com/w3c/TPAC2022-Health-rules


   Atsushi: It is already very strict!

   Nigel: I agree. Any more questions about the health aspects?

   No more questions at this time

   Nigel: Moving to the agenda topics
   … for TPAC.
   … One of the tasks is to transcribe the agenda into the
   specific meetings
   … What I have so far, is, for TTWG alone:
   … * DAPT-REQs and DAPT issues
   … * TTML2 issues (especially any arising from DAPT work?)
   … * Future workshops
   … * Charter FO
   … Anything else to add for the TPAC agenda?

   Cyril: Maybe, 2 things. For DAPT-REQs and DAPT issues, can we
   turn that into an editing session?
   … It depends on how many people are present. As both editors
   will be there we should take the opportunity
   … to do some extreme editing!

   Nigel: I'd like to do that too.

   Cyril: It may be easier to get to FPWD if we have that as a
   goal.

   Nigel: +1

   Cyril: The second topic or question is: I don't see IMSC in the
   list.
   … Did you see recently something called imsc-rosetta from
   YellaUmbrella?
   … I don't know if we want to simplifications to IMSC?

   Nigel: I certainly have seen it and have some significant
   concerns.
   … I'm happy to leave it, but if someone wants to discuss it we
   can set time aside.

   Pierre: I don't know of any known outstanding issues that need
   discussion at TPAC other than the HRM refactoring.

   Nigel: That's a good point, should we add it to the agenda?

   Pierre: I think we just need to crank the process, I don't
   think there are any outstanding issues.
   … We should talk about where it is, today.

   Nigel: Okay, I won't add anything.
   … The other obvious omission is WebVTT - Gary?

   Gary: Probably there isn't anything specific to WebVTT right
   now.
   … I do know that there's a company that's looking to switch to
   WebVTT but there are missing features,
   … and they'll be at FOMS in October, so that will be a better
   place right now.

   Nigel: For the joint meetings:
   … With Media WG we have:
   … * Behaviour with controls
   … * Video element updates around shadow DOM and containing
   content (NB see breakout session relating to this)
   … Anything else?

   Nothing else

   Nigel: With MEIG:
   … * Audio Description and Dubbing
   … * Subtitle document rendering complexity
   … For the former, that's DAPT
   … For the latter, that's the HRM. Pierre, I think you might
   want to ask about real world data?

   Pierre: OK, I'll put that session in my calendar.
   … (I won't be attending in person)

   Nigel: Anything else for that joint session?

   Nothing else

   Nigel: I did create a breakout session for the Wednesday, to
   talk about privacy, accessibility choices and product data,
   … which may feed into the session about the video element and
   the shadow DOM.

   [15]Breakout session ideas

     [15] https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2022/SessionIdeas


   Nigel: Anything else for TPAC?

  Rechartering status update

   Nigel: The Charter has been extended until the end of the
   calendar year.
   … The FOs have been sent to the FO Council.

   Atsushi: I'm preparing materials for the FO Council.
   … I may get back to the WG later next month or so.

   Nigel: If you are able to join the TTWG TPAC meeting we could
   discuss it there.

   Atsushi: I will try to join remotely as much as possible.

   Nigel: That's appreciated, thank you.
   … I think that's all on rechartering right now.

   Atsushi: Nothing more now. Documentation is under preparation.
   … Following the FO Council procedure will take a while.

  AOB - IMSC HRM

   Pierre: It's been a while since we spoke about this. I wonder
   what the status is.
   … We sent liaisons to a bunch of organisations.

   Nigel: Yes we did

   Pierre: I don't think I've seen anything substantive.

   Nigel: I think we maybe had one response, and they didn't ask
   for any changes.

   Pierre: So...

   Nigel: ... we can demonstrate that we sought wide review.

   Pierre: We have a working draft, so we need to work on tests
   now, for the next step being CR.

   Nigel: Yes

   Pierre: Whatever we use to demonstrate implementation
   experience and interop...

   Nigel: That's needed for CR exit.

   Pierre: Right. We have one open source implementation.
   … We'll have some synthetic sample documents.
   … But I think what we wanted was to have independently created
   sample documents.
   … To match the two independent factors.

   Nigel: Right, there's no guarantee that we will be chartered
  with that in our exit criteria, but that's the plan, yes.

   Pierre: Assuming we do that, for independently created input
   documents we could use the IMSC test suite
   … but I'm not sure that is in practice a good test.
   … Another is to make a call for documents, or to allow people
   to test their content (privately) and then report.
   … Let's say there are 3 users with major libraries of IMSC
   content and they run the implementation
   … against their library, and they report it fails when it
   should and passes when it should, would we
   … consider that sufficient implementation experience?
   … Question for everyone on the call.

   Cyril: It's doable for Netflix to run the HRM implementation on
   a subset of content.
   … I think I found an issue once before.

   Pierre: Nigel and Gary, do you think that you would be happy to
   present that to the Director?

   Nigel: I think it depends on how the organisation comes to the
   conclusion that the passes or fails are correct.
   … If it's an accidental fail, with no prior checking on HRM
   complexity, that doesn't tell us anything about
   … the quality of the specification.

   Pierre: Right, though I think unexpected fails do tell us
   something too, for example
   … that the HRM is not appropriate for real world content or
   that the implementation is wrong.

   Nigel: Right, but silent (but wrong) passes also can be occur.

   Andreas: Question to understand the proposal, or the thinking.
   … Do you mean that testing the open source HRM implementation
   with a large body of content
   … counts as an independent implementation, that for example
   would meet the requirements
   … written in the Charter?

   Pierre: I'm assuming the Charter will not require 2 independent
   implementations.
   … If it does, I think we can stop this project right now.
   … I would claim that 2 factors, i.e. independent entities
   creating documents and testing them
   … against an open source implementation do count.

   Andreas: If an implementation has the goal of producing HRM
   compliant content and is built to do that
   … then it counts as a second implementation?

   Nigel: Yes

   Pierre: The narrow view is two parsing/rendering
   implementations.
   … I agree, if two independent folk create documents that they
   think pass the HRM and then it does pass
   … an implementation, in my mind that does match the
   implementation experience requirements.

   Nigel: I think it would match the narrow view too.
   … It depends on how they have concluded that the HRM has been
   passed.

   Pierre: The next step is to design the tests?

   Nigel: Yes
   … There's an unasked question here: Pierre has asserted that
   there won't be another implementation, but
   … who have we asked?

   Cyril: I don't think it makes sense for players to implement
   the HRM.
   … Content providers, I think, would rely on an open source
   implementation. One is probably enough.
   … I think I'm with Pierre here.

   Nigel: I'll leave it out there, if anyone does plan to
   implement the HRM, do let us know.

   <pal> in the worse case, it can stay in CR indefinitely like
   CSS specs

  Meeting close

   Nigel: We didn't get to the DAPT agenda topic, I suggest we
   look at the issues offline.
   … Thanks everyone. [adjourns meeting]


    Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by
    [16]scribe.perl version 192 (Tue Jun 28 16:55:30 2022 UTC).

     [16] https://w3c.github.io/scribe2/scribedoc.html

Received on Thursday, 18 August 2022 16:16:37 UTC