- From: Nigel Megitt <nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
- Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 16:25:19 +0000
- To: "public-tt@w3.org" <public-tt@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <477975C8-1DB0-49CA-AC93-D390D83B87A6@bbc.co.uk>
Thanks all for attending today's TTWG meeting. Minutes can be found in HTML format at https://www.w3.org/2020/07/30-tt-minutes.html
In text format:
[1]W3C
[1] https://www.w3.org/
Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
30 July 2020
[2]Previous meeting. [3]Agenda. [4]IRC log.
[2] https://www.w3.org/2020/07/23-tt-minutes.html
[3] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/132
[4] https://www.w3.org/2020/07/30-tt-irc
Attendees
Present
Andreas, Atsushi, Cyril, Gary, Mike, Nigel, Pierre
Regrets
-
Chair
Gary, Nigel
Scribe
nigel
Contents
1. [5]This meeting
2. [6]IMSC 1.2 transition request
3. [7]ARIB liaison response
4. [8]TTML2 2nd Edition
5. [9]TTML2 Font fingerprinting privacy issue (summary)
6. [10]Virtual TPAC 2020 planning
7. [11]Meeting Close
8. [12]Summary of resolutions
Meeting minutes
This meeting
Nigel: Today we have IMSC 1.2 transition request, TTML2 IR, and
TPAC planning
… None of them are big topics.
Nigel: Any other business, or points to make sure we cover?
… I can summarise if anyone wants about the font fingerprinting
TTML2 issue, in AOB.
group: [no other business]
IMSC 1.2 transition request
Nigel: Atsushi, thank you for raising the transition request
… No objections in the AC review
… The change feedback has already been addressed.
[13]REC Request for TTML-IMSC 1.2
[13] https://github.com/w3c/transitions/issues/257
Nigel: One question on IMSC 1.2 Rec I think we have not
answered yet is:
… Obsolete IMSC 1.1 or leave as a Rec also?
Pierre: I think IMSC 1.1 remains in active use and should not
be obsoleted with 1.2.
Nigel: I think that's right.
Atsushi: Obsolete or superseded means that in e.g. IMSC 1.1
will be marked as inactive
… by IMSC 1.2, but I think that is not the case for this time.
Nigel: Sounds like we're all in agreement. Any counter-views?
group: [silence]
Mike: Not a counter-view, but a question. 1.0.1 remains in use
and people are referencing
… it. What are you proposing with IMSC 1.1?
Nigel: Not proposing anything, just checking in since we didn't
discuss it.
… This is the easiest time to obsolete the previous version,
but I don't believe we want to.
… Thought I should check in and confirm my
understanding/expectation.
Mike: I understand, thank you.
Resolution: On publishing IMSC 1.2 do not obsolete or supersede
any previous version.
Nigel: Just for clarity, we don't need a Resolution to request
transition to Rec because it
… is not for us to do.
Atsushi: That's right. If we don't decide to do anything we
will have 3 active IMSC specifications.
Nigel: Good, I notice that Pierre has already prepared the Pull
Request for Rec, thank you,
… and Atsushi and I have already approved it.
… It may need a tweak to the date, which can be done later
easily.
… Any other points on transition to Rec?
Atsushi: No, not from me.
ARIB liaison response
Nigel: No progress from me after discussion previously.
… I did think about how to work on this in a private space, and
the only option I am
… aware of is the member-tt reflector, which doesn't feel like
a great way to iterate over
… a document. Any other ideas?
Pierre: What about creating a google doc and just sharing the
link on member-tt?
Nigel: Yes, that'd work!
<atsushi> +1
Nigel: OK, fine, will do.
TTML2 2nd Edition
Nigel: Glenn has made some updates recently, indicating one
passing implementation
… for many of the tests, but not yet all of them.
[14]TTML2 Implementation Report
[14] https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/TTML2SecondEditionImplementationReport
Nigel: I don't know of anyone planning a second implementation
for these tests at the
… current time. We may find ourselves in CR for a long time, if
nobody steps forward.
Cyril: I checked the exit criteria again. I wasn't clear if we
need a validation or presentation
… or both. I read that at least two implementations must
support each changed feature.
… So it doesn't matter if it is presentation or validation?
Nigel: Right
Pierre: The IR is up to date?
Nigel: I believe so
Pierre: It doesn't look so great. None of those are at risk,
right?
Cyril: We have nothing at risk at the moment.
Nigel: I don't think we added any new features in 2nd Ed, as
such.
… So we maybe need to consider exactly what we think is needed
for CR exit a bit more
… more carefully.
Pierre: For instance, all the presentation tests are
clarifications, not new features?
Nigel: Arguably audio-in-body is a new feature.
Pierre: For that we do have an implementation.
… I'm looking at all the other ones.
… We should try to make sure the page reflects reality. If
these are not new features and
… are just clarifications... In IMSC, we've added tests with
clarifications without necessarily
… having a new round of the IR. Maybe we shouldn't be so hard
on ourselves!
Nigel: I have sympathy with this, and will try to assess each
test and its related change
… a little more carefully. Counting against that in my view,
the spec should reflect implementation
… reality generally where possible.
Nigel: My understanding is that Glenn plans to get around to
adding code to TTT to
… pass the remaining tests.
Pierre: Also, and we've discussed this before, where one is an
open source implementation,
… where one is a reference, it is a lot less important that
there are 2 independent
… implementations.
Nigel: I remain unsure about that!
TTML2 Font fingerprinting privacy issue (summary)
Nigel: The minutes are already sent out from Monday's meeting.
… In essence, we should try to get as close to the request as
we can, and make the
… transition request when we're ready.
… My understanding is that this will be considered a reasonable
approach.
group: [requests non-scribed discussion]
Pierre: Is there a deadline for submitting the pull request?
Nigel: It's our timescale.
Pierre: We ought to let Sam review it in a bounded timeframe.
Nigel: My view is that we treat this like any other pull
request, merge, proceed, and tell
… Sam about it when it's done.
Pierre: Thanks, that answers my question.
Virtual TPAC 2020 planning
Nigel: Thank you Atsushi for making requests for joint meetings
with MEIG + Media WG,
… and CSS WG.
Atsushi: I'm waiting for their reply. If we have any preference
on day, e.g. Monday/Tuesday,
… it may be possible to propose something to them just for
that.
Nigel: Can I ask you to send a reminder to TTWG please,
summarising the virtual TPAC
… timelines and dates etc?
Atsushi: Yes, I will send that.
Nigel: I think we have specific topics for MEIG and Media WG,
but not for CSS.
… Please could I ask you all to think about which CSS issues
need joint discussion?
… By the way. CSS WG is having a virtual f2f this week, and
immediately before this call
… I joined, because there was one scheduled TTML issue on the
agenda, which is the
… name of the fillLineGap-equivalent property. That discussion
did not conclude yet.
[15][css-inline] inline-sizing property name is too similar to
inline-size w3c/csswg-drafts#5189
[15] https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5189
Nigel: Possibly the shear issues for example need more
discussion between us and CSS WG?
Cyril: It depends on how the shear issue evolves until TPAC.
Nigel: Fair enough!
Cyril: Is CSS WG working on overhang also?
Nigel: I don't know.
Cyril: I think that was one issue they wanted to work on at
some point, maybe deferred until the next version.
Pierre: What's the best way to work with CSS? If we need
changes in CSS we need a concerted
… effort. Is this the right time to do it?
Cyril: I can just repeat what I said on the email thread.
… Several ways to work with CSS WG. Japanese subtitles are my
main concern.
… Either go through Japanese Layout TF, who are focused on
print, and harder to convince
… on subtitles-related issues.
… I'd rather persuade CSS WG directly that is is important,
keeping JL TF in the loop.
… Best way is to get the feature implemented in browsers I
think, then they will talk in CSS WG
… about the best way to do it.
Pierre: It's important that subtitling community people are
included in prioritisation discussions about styling that
affects subtitles.
Atsushi: There is a lot of work to do, and many complex
interactions across other CSS properties, e.g. tate chu yoko
and oblique together.
… Even for now, applying underline to Japanese in horizontal
writing mode is quite complex.
… For a wider variety of decoration, a question for JL TF and
CSS WG is all the permutations that
… should be supported and their behaviours.
… For now Chrome's implementation allows tate chu yoko to be
expanded to 1.1em, but
… that could conflict with several decoration styles, so if we
can consider all of these legal (illegal?)
… combinations it might be possible to go forward. But it is
quite difficult to cover them all.
… For manual typesetting editors will coordinate everything but
for CSS we need the capability
… for all the decorations. All of these special cases need to
be considered for the specification.
… That is the question actually, and which ones may not be
needed for timed text or subtitles.
Meeting Close
Nigel: Apologies for going over time, very stimulating
discussions. Thank you! [adjourns meeting]
Summary of resolutions
1. [16]On publishing IMSC 1.2 do not obsolete or supersede any
previous version.
Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by
[17]scribe.perl version 121 (Mon Jun 8 14:50:45 2020 UTC).
[17] https://w3c.github.io/scribe2/scribedoc.html
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Received on Thursday, 30 July 2020 16:25:39 UTC