- From: Nigel Megitt <nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
- Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 16:02:57 +0000
- To: W3C Public TTWG <public-tt@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <7E3A80C4-E5D0-455C-8612-855122621B06@bbc.co.uk>
Thanks all for attending today's TTWG meeting. Minutes can be found in HTML format at https://www.w3.org/2020/07/09-tt-minutes.html
In text format:
[1]W3C
[1] https://www.w3.org/
Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
09 July 2020
[2]Previous meeting. [3]Agenda. [4]IRC log.
[2] https://www.w3.org/2020/07/02-tt-minutes.html
[3] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/129
[4] https://www.w3.org/2020/07/09-tt-irc
Attendees
Present
Andreas, Atsushi, Gary, Nigel, Pierre
Regrets
Cyril
Chair
Gary, Nigel
Scribe
nigel
Contents
1. [5]This meeting
2. [6]The codecs parameter should have a formal definition of
the use of the combination operators.
tt-profile-registry#71
3. [7]AC review of IMSC 1.2
4. [8]Shear
5. [9]AOB: EBU Webinar on TTML over RTP
6. [10]Meeting close
Meeting minutes
This meeting
Nigel: Today we have the TTML Profile registry issue on codecs,
… IMSC 1.2 and TTML2 mainly as placeholders - not a lot to
discuss?
… and Atsushi requested an AOB for IMSC 1.2 AC Review. Thank
you!
… Any other other business?
Pierre: I think Atsushi had a report on his discussion about
shear.
Nigel: Ok we should be able to find time for that.
Nigel: Thank you, that's our agenda for today.
The codecs parameter should have a formal definition of the use of the
combination operators. tt-profile-registry#71
github: [11]https://github.com/w3c/tt-profile-registry/issues/
71
[11] https://github.com/w3c/tt-profile-registry/issues/71
Nigel: [reminds group of the issue]
Pierre: Some of the primary users of this are in the community
where Cyril and Mike
… participate so I'm not sure we can make much progress without
them.
Nigel: I know what you mean.
AC review of IMSC 1.2
Atsushi: There's no requirement on votes, but it is encouraged
that all members actively
… participating in TTWG to vote. As of now, we only have 4
reviews, 2 from active
… participants and 2 others. Let me encourage you to ask your
organisation to submit its review.
Nigel: That's very clear, thank you!
Atsushi: One FYI: there are no objections except for one issue
raised by BBC's AC rep
Nigel: Okay, and that's an editorial issue.
Atsushi: Yes, that's all.
Pierre: There's a pull request against IMSC 1.2 that needs
approval to merge.
Nigel: This has somehow passed me by, thank you I will look at
it.
… Thank you for the prompt.
Shear
Pierre: This is a long-standing topic and I'm trying to add
support for shear, whether it is
… block or character or line, to CSS.
… Atsushi kindly took an action item to follow up with folks in
the JLREQ community.
… Are you able to summarise your findings?
Atsushi: Yes. The most baseline one is that there is no mention
of shear or italics characters
… in the current JLREQ document.
… In the tickets shear is not mentioned in JLREQ, but in one
note within JLREQ document
… shear is mentioned as an uncommon behaviour, sometimes used
for headings or something.
… Shear in Japanese typography was not common and was seen as a
rare feature.
… Since having shear is quite low priority in Japanese
typography, usually this is one of the
… last features to be implemented. In general contributions to
Chromium, Firefox and other
… browser implementations is quite welcome, for implementation.
… That is a common understanding among JLREQ task force.
… During our discussion we found one thing for block shearing
to be shared in combination
… with ruby base and annotation.
… It seems that in discussion there was a request for samples
or documentation of block shearing of ruby.
… But there is no follow-up to that comment. We would welcome
such examples or documents
… if they exist. That would be the point for us to discuss with
browser vendors.
… That is my summary.
Nigel: Thank you.
… Do we have any examples of use in subtitles?
Pierre: Yes you can find them from Netflix and from Digital
Cinema.
… What I'm trying to do is find a way to break the cycle where
every time it is presented
… the answer is "we don't know about it so it is not relevant".
<atsushi> [12]https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/
4871350/40342158-d573a7f8-5d3d-11e8-987a-d76aef5b45c5.png
[12] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/4871350/40342158-d573a7f8-5d3d-11e8-987a-d76aef5b45c5.png
Atsushi: Actually we would like samples of block shearing?
Pierre: What do you mean? [shows image on share]
[13]CSS Issue 2983 for shear
[13] https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2983
Pierre: This is a long thread with a lot of examples in it.
… You can shear every character individually or as a block, and
the difference is the alignment
… of ruby annotations with the base.
Atsushi: We need real world examples too.
Pierre: SMPTE has a document that describes this, that is used
every day in digital cinema.
… SMPTE ST 428-7.
… Netflix has it in their subtitle guidelines.
Andreas: How I understood Atsushi to mean that they need real
documents, like from an actual movie.
Atsushi: Yes, some reference to a real movie including this
would be very useful.
… We could not find any example of it being used for ruby.
Pierre: Just to make sure, do you mean a specification or an
actual distributed subtitle document?
Atsushi: Any guideline, internal company guideline or
reference.
Pierre: OK I provided a couple of links like the Netflix one
and the SMPTE one which both
… have examples of shear.
… I think a copy was shared with this group so we have a
liaison with the SMPTE document.
… There is also software called SST G1Pro, which is Japanese
subtitling software.
… [shares screen showing a manual] This manual has examples of
shear.
… Is that what you're looking for?
Atsushi: If this shows block shearing for ruby that would be
great.
Pierre: It does, yes. I'm not sure if I can find it on the spot
but I will send an email
… summarising those three documents. Do you think that would be
helpful in continuing the discussion?
Atsushi: Yes
Pierre: I will find the examples and send it over.
… [finds it on page 45]
… Here we go!
Atsushi: I see, I can see this is sheared by block.
Pierre: I don't want to presume about the ideal way of
shearing, block, line or character.
… The idea is to come up with the right answer. I'm fairly
certain italic is not the right answer.
… I am happy to put you in touch with an engineer behind this
software if you would like.
Atsushi: I think we should start with these reference
documents.
Pierre: OK
Nigel: Just thinking out loud, I guess a different answer could
be to skew the alignment line
… for aligning the ruby annotation, when shear is applied to a
ruby base character.
Pierre: I'm happy with whatever the answer is but not "this
doesn't happen" - I'm happy
<atsushi> [14]https://github.com/w3c/type-samples
[14] https://github.com/w3c/type-samples
Pierre: to provide a list of examples.
Atsushi: Just for information, JLREQ is operating a repository
of samples, as above.
Pierre: Please upload the links. While you have the attention
of JLREQ I recommend you go
… to them immediately and share the examples.
Atsushi: Yes, of course.
AOB: EBU Webinar on TTML over RTP
Nigel: Not sure if I shared this before but I will be
participating in an EBU Webinar
… alongside the author of RFC 8759, James Sandford, about TTML
over RTP, on 28th July.
[15]EBU Webinar link
[15] https://tech.ebu.ch/events/2020/timed-text-over-rtp-webinar
Nigel: If you're interested, please do register.
Meeting close
Nigel: It seems Mike had difficulty joining today, so we'll
have to resolve that offline and
… return to the codecs parameter issue next week.
… Thanks everyone, since we've completed those parts of the
agenda that we could,
… let's adjourn. [adjourns meeting]
Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by
[16]scribe.perl version 121 (Mon Jun 8 14:50:45 2020 UTC).
[16] https://w3c.github.io/scribe2/scribedoc.html
Received on Thursday, 9 July 2020 16:04:02 UTC