{Minutes} TTWG Meeting 2020-01-09

Thanks all for attending today's TTWG meeting. Minutes can be found in HTML format at https://www.w3.org/2020/01/09-tt-minutes.html


Please note that we made 2 resolutions:

  1.  Respond to #1189 saying we will not make a change now and pointing out that P.9 effectively covers most of the points already.<https://www.w3.org/2020/01/09-tt-minutes.html#x07>
  2.  Publish TTML2 CR on 28th January 2020<https://www.w3.org/2020/01/09-tt-minutes.html#x08>
The review period under our decision review policy for these resolutions ends on 2020-01-23.

In text format:

   [1]W3C

      [1] https://www.w3.org/


                Timed Text Working Group Teleconference

09 January 2020

   [2]Previous meeting. [3]Agenda. [4]IRC log.

      [2] https://www.w3.org/2019/12/19-tt-minutes.html

      [3] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/88

      [4] https://www.w3.org/2020/01/09-tt-irc


Attendees

   Present
          Andreas, Atsushi, Gary, Glenn, Huaqi, Nigel, Pierre

   Regrets
          -

   Chair
          Gary, Nigel

   Scribe
          nigel

Contents

     * [5]Meeting minutes
         1. [6]This meeting
         2. [7]IMSC 1.2 FPWD Next steps
         3. [8]Potential semantic conflict between ttp:profile and
            ttp:contentProfiles. w3c/imsc#506
         4. [9]font selection rules under-specified? w3c/imsc#516
         5. [10]IMSC 1.1 Errata
         6. [11]AOB - Early merge of TTML2 PRs
         7. [12]AOB Bullet chatting discussion at M&E IG
         8. [13]Meeting close
     * [14]Summary of resolutions

Meeting minutes

  This meeting

   Nigel: Welcome to Huaqi Shan from China Mobile
   … And welcome back everyone after our 2 week break.
   … [iterates through agenda]
   … Any other business, or points to make sure we cover?

   group: [no other business]

  IMSC 1.2 FPWD Next steps

   Nigel: Re my action #87 to request WR.
   … This was delayed before Christmas and I managed to get a
   single key part of it done earlier today.
   … Which was to request wide review on the public announce list.
   … I also have to send liaisons to our liaisons as per the
   Charter.
   … I plan to adapt the earlier message for the liaisons.

   Pierre: One question to discuss: the timetable.
   … What's the best timetable we can achieve for CR of IMSC 1.2?

   Atsushi: I am getting back to the timetable, more time please.

   Pierre: It's going to be important for me to schedule my time
   and understand when we're expected to address comments.
   … It would be good to have a tentative schedule available.

   Atsushi: Yes

   Nigel: Given notice for review, time to address any comments
   and issues, we're looking at not earlier than 20th or
   … more likely 27th February for CR publication.
   … That's based on minimum 4 weeks review time from sending out
   the announcements today or tomorrow.
   … Then taking into account our pull request merge time,
   decision review policy time etc.

   Pierre: Alright that's good, I'll make a note.

   Nigel: The liaison work is ongoing, I'll go ahead and get that
   done.

  Potential semantic conflict between ttp:profile and
  ttp:contentProfiles. w3c/imsc#506

   github: [15]https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/506


     [15] https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/506


   Nigel: Where we left this last time was Glenn was going to have
   a think about this some more.

   Glenn: I'm afraid I haven't been able to do that.

  font selection rules under-specified? w3c/imsc#516

   github: [16]https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/516


     [16] https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/516


   Glenn: I responded on this. Auto means it's implementation
   dependent.

   Glenn: We should deal with this in TTML in the fullness of time
   to map more to CSS font-face.
   … I think there's an issue for it.

   Nigel: That makes sense, so in the meantime we could consider
   doing this in IMSC.

   Glenn: It was going to be a tough nut to crack.

   Glenn: It depends where the core work on TTML is going to be
   done.

   Nigel: Of course we could do it in IMSC and then move it across
   to TTML

   Glenn: It's clearly a core semantic issue.

   Nigel: In that case we should think if we can cover it in TTML2
   soon enough.

   Glenn: I'll try to find the existing issue.

   Nigel: Strictly this issue is off agenda.

   SUMMARY: Conversation ongoing

  IMSC 1.1 Errata

   Nigel: I double checked the errata document and it does not
   seem to pull through the GitHub issues in the way I
   … was expecting.

   Atsushi: I need to dig out the history of this. The code
   depends on external resources hosted at github.io that was
   … updated to remove depencies on jquery etc so I need to trace
   back to when the code was taken and will look into that.

   Nigel: OK sounds like my assessment is right that the document
   is not looking correct now?

   Atsushi: Part of the information taken from GitHub is right,
   but some parts are not working.

   Nigel: OK I will leave this with you.

   Atsushi: At some point that file was copied from the main
   repository, but only the main HTML file, so if there is any
   … record of when such a copy was done, I may find it easier to
   get a pointer to the copy in the main repository.

   Nigel: I will look offline - Philippe did it very recently,
   maybe December.

   Atsushi: OK that helps me already.
   … Let me take some time for that.

   Nigel: OK, thank you

  AOB - Early merge of TTML2 PRs

   Nigel: Glenn is requesting early merge of w3c/ttml2#1191 and
   w3c/ttml2#1192.
   … These are for the CR publication?

   Glenn: Correct. One of them was to update the CSS informative
   bibliographic references. Writing Mode went to Rec,
   … and a number of others have been updated, some to CR or PR
   and a few others too.
   … Also the CSS Box is no longer viable for referring to the
   definition of width and height.
   … CSS Basic Box was superseded by CSS Box so we had to go back
   to the original CSS 2.1 references.
   … Those are all informative or non-substantive editorial
   changes.
   … The second PR is to update entities to bring in the CR status
   of the document and so forth.
   … I want to mention I chose Jan 28 which is the date Philippe
   gave us based on the wide review or horizontal review
   … process rule according to our Charter. The other one was the
   no-earlier-date for PR, based on the tool for coming
   … up with dates for the various milestones.

   Nigel: There's plenty of time to wait the normal period before
   merging and still publish on time. Any reason for
   … merging early, particularly?

   Glenn: I just want to get it off my list - I have my reasons.

   Nigel: Anyone need more time or have any objection to merging
   this early?

   group: [silence]

   Nigel: Everyone seems happy so you can go ahead.

   Glenn: That allows me to bundle up the TR and send it to
   Atsushi ahead of publication.
   … I've run it through pubrules and linkchecker and it passes
   them so it should be ready to go.
   … I'll put the tar together for you Atsushi.

   Nigel: This seems a little ahead of time. For publishing on
   28th we will need a resolution. The timing means we need
   … to do that today, I realise.

   Glenn: Procedural question - can you take that before the time
   has expired for the wide review, or do you need the
   … resolution to be conditional in order to give time for the
   wide review to expire?

   Nigel: Are there any issues?

   Glenn: One issue was filed by Jeffrey Yasskin that has not been
   labelled.

   Nigel: That's a HR issue that was raised, so we need to think
   about our actions.

   Glenn: That's right. Options are: 1. Raise for 3rd Ed on the
   basis that it is not related to any change in 2nd Ed.
   … 2. Address it here anyway.
   … I prefer to do the former and label as 3rd Ed and not make
   any further changes on 2nd Ed.

   Nigel: Any other views on that?

   <atsushi> last CR update transition request seems to be :
   [17]https://github.com/w3c/transitions/issues/77


     [17] https://github.com/w3c/transitions/issues/77


   [18]Mention fingerprinting vectors in privacy considerations

     [18] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/1189


   Nigel: The proposal is to modify an already existing
   informative section.
   … Another point related to this is that we previously discussed
   extracting the privacy and security text from TTML, IMSC
   … and WebVTT and publishing as a single WG Note.

   Glenn: So it would be premature to make the change now?

   Nigel: I'd rather be transparent about known risks earlier.

   Glenn: I'd rather not be too quick if we are not sure the
   information is accurate.

   Nigel: Are any of the comments wrong?

   Glenn: Some of them are about contexts that are not defined in
   TTML.

   Pierre: These are really generic privacy considerations for
   UAs.
   … Any time the UA opens anything on behalf of the user it opens
   up a fingerprinting vector opportunity.
   … From a high level I'm not sure why every specification for a
   format for a UA needs to include those considerations.
   … They could be listed in general somewhere for UAs.
   … I'm arguing from an architectural standpoint that we should
   not try to make progress on a UA issue in a TTML
   … specification.

   Glenn: If you look through here it talks about colour, user
   preference for consuming media, language, fontFamily etc.

   Pierre: My point is very general Glenn. For instance today a
   web page defines multiple sizes of images that can be
   … loaded based on break points. That's a fingerprinting vector
   but the PNG spec is not the place to document it.

   Glenn: I completely agree.
   … The only thing in these comments that pertains to TTML2 at
   all is the audio, image and condition bullet.
   … Most of it pertains to TTML1 and as you say, and I agree,
   it's even more general than that.

   Pierre: I think we should try to reply to the commenter maybe
   along those lines to say "aren't they generic considerations
   … that belong in a common document rather than this document?".
   … Different versions of the same text document in different
   languages, say. If I access the Romanian version I probably
   … live in Romania but it has nothing to do with the text
   document specification really.

   Glenn: Immediate problem is how to address this review comment.
   … I think we owe the commenter a response, right?

   Nigel: Right

   Glenn: I don't think we have adequate cause to change the text
   of our spec at this point to address this. That's my
   … personal feeling. It would be a non-normative change if we do
   make it and I don't think we need to make a change.

   Pierre: I think we should try to avoid an exhaustive list of
   all potential fingerprinting vectors.
   … We could offer a simple sentence like "Loading this file and
   the referenced resources from it may expose user preference"

   Glenn: My preference is to do nothing.

   Pierre: I don't disagree, but as a generic statement in a
   compromise .

   Nigel: [looks for existing statement that already does this]

   [19]P.9 Privacy of Preference

     [19] https://w3c.github.io/ttml2/index.html#d3e58989


   Nigel: I think this already does something close enough.

   PROPOSAL: Respond to #1189 saying we will not make a change now
   and pointing out that P.9 effectively covers most of the points
   already.

   PROPOSAL: Publish TTML2 CR on 28th January 2020

   Nigel: On the first proposal, does anyone think we really have
   to make a change to TTML2 2nd Ed before CR publication
   … to address #1189?

   Nigel: hearing nobody, I'm taking that as a Resolution.

   Resolution: Respond to #1189 saying we will not make a change
   now and pointing out that P.9 effectively covers most of the
   points already.

   Nigel: On the second proposal, to publish TTML2 CR on 28th Jan,
   any objections?

   Nigel: hearing no objections.

   Resolution: Publish TTML2 CR on 28th January 2020

   Glenn: Procedural question: I presume that if we get some last
   minute comment from the wide review process between
   … now and then we will need to deal with it if it is of
   substantive nature?

   Nigel: Yes

   Glenn: Right, that should be understood.

   Nigel: Good point, thank you.

   Glenn: I will proceed with the early merge after the call.

   Atsushi: I will prepare the transition request based on that
   resolution.

   Glenn: One more question: On the issue #1189 shall I mark that
   as...?

   Nigel: Do you want me to deal with it?

   Glenn: Sure, yes.

   Nigel: I'll look at it and come up with something appropriate.

   Glenn: Thank you. You might point out that appendix P in the
   current document does address many of his comments.

   Nigel: Sure, yes.

   Glenn: Perhaps it addresses all of them indirectly.

  AOB Bullet chatting discussion at M&E IG

   Nigel: On Tuesday's M&E IG call

   [20]M&E IG minutes 2020-01-07

     [20] https://www.w3.org/2020/01/07-me-minutes.html


   Nigel: I had some concerns about the gap analysis that was
   presented and I would like TTWG to take some time to
   … think about how we can help the folk involved understand the
   landscape of TTML, WebVTT, HTML and the Text Track Cue APIs
   … to clarify what they need and possibly improve the quality of
   their decision.
   … I just want to be really clear I'm not suggesting they
   necessarily have the "wrong" outcome, but the reasoning
   … and analysis that got there seemed like it could be improved.

   Huaqi: After the meeting on Tuesday, we had some internal
   discussion and yes we really needed the help from TTWG
   … to understand TTML2 and WebVTT and we would like to continue
   the discussion with you for the task force meeting.

   Nigel: Thank you.
   … Do you want to summarise what the proposal is at the moment?

   Huaqi: Yes, in the meeting some questions were raised.
   Currently we cannot find the answers for questions or ideas
   … from the meeting so maybe we need further discussion
   internally in the Community Group with other members
   … and then we can continue the discussion in the task force
   with you.
   … We need your proposal actually.

   Nigel: That's good to know that you're interested in having a
   second, alternative proposal.

   Huaqi: For the gap analysis we showed, do you have any other
   proposal for the analysis?

   Nigel: Yes, the other proposal would be to identify the
   required animation features from TTML2 and either add them to
   IMSC or create a new profile, and implement that. I'm sure that
   both proposals could be made to work.

   Andreas: We definitely need more time to discuss this so we
   should dedicate a time window for it.
   … A few minutes is not sufficient.

   Nigel: I agree. People can obviously contribute also in the CG.

   Glenn: I suggest that if you have another discussion on the
   bullet material you hold it at the beginning of the meeting
   … considering the time zone in China.

   Nigel: Good idea, thank you, and also maybe do it at 1500 UTC
   rather than 1600 UTC.

   Glenn: Yes.

  Meeting close

   Nigel: Thanks everyone, let's adjourn for today. [adjourns
   meeting]

Summary of resolutions

    1. [21]Respond to #1189 saying we will not make a change now
       and pointing out that P.9 effectively covers most of the
       points already.
    2. [22]Publish TTML2 CR on 28th January 2020


    Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by
    [23]scribe.perl version 104 (Sat Dec 7 01:59:30 2019 UTC).

     [23] https://w3c.github.io/scribe2/scribedoc.html

Received on Thursday, 9 January 2020 17:26:13 UTC